Ford V-6 beats v-8's in towing competition

[Diamondpilot]

Why are so many of you waiting for that awesome small diesel that you hope will produce a couple hundred HP and 400tq for a $6000 premium? And you hope to get 25MPG using that diesel fuel that only costs 10% more than gas.
This gas engine will get low to mid 20's for MPG. It costs $750 more than the standard V8 engine, and runs on regular gas. And it produces 365HP and 420ft lbs of torque. The new technology is all going into gas engines and the small diesels are being left in the dust. You'll never recover the cost of a diesel engine since it uses more expensive fuel and gets similar milage. Now gasers are being rated with similar power too.

I agree 100% Ford went out on a limb with this new 3.5 V6 It will either make them the laughing stock of the industry or they will come out looking like genius and be 5 years ahead of the competition. My money is on Ford having a winner. There may be a little teething pain but in the end my guess is the others will follow Ford as they always have and they will sell tons of these trucks. At only $750 it seem like a bargain to me. Just like the V10 was in the SuperDuty.

Chris

 

[JasG]

In 2007 the higher emission standards took effect which they had to increase EGR to lower emissions. This is very bad to a diesel and when they added the exhaust filters in 2009 or 10 this catches soot that EGR increases. To clean the filters they have "active regeneration" that puts fuel in this filter to burn off the soot. This greatly reduced MPG in all diesel engines that use this and since 2003 when they 1st started using EGR it reduced engine life.

This stuff hasn't worked it's way down to small diesels yet but it will. It is currently on all new over 100 hp tractors and constuction equipment. The newest emissions controls SCR or DEF seems to be a good way to go. These spray a liquid into the exhaust to clean up the NOx. The liquid is urea based and isn't cheap. These systems are just now coming out, but have been used in Europe for a few years.

If they can drop the EGR, and only use after treatments then milage and engine life will come back.

 

[Diamondpilot]

Diesel prices fluctuate. It wanst too long ago that gas was more expensive.

And I highly doubt that if this truck were sitting on the lot right next to an identical truck with a v8, that it would only be $750 more:confused2:

And since the big diesels are already knocking on the 25mpg door, I would expect a smaller, less powerful version to be over 30. And there is also something to be said for the longevity of a diesel compered to a gasser.

While I love Diesels and currently own two when was the last time you had a gas engine fail? For me it was 1989 in a S-10 Blazer. Oil pump went out and it threw a rod. A oil pump can fail on a diesel also. While its true that in most cases you will wear out the truck before you wear out the diesel engine the same can be said for modern gas engines. I see them all the time with 250,000 miles on them.

One other thing I notice is nothing seem to leak oil these days. I can remember growing up my dad was a GM man. We had Cameros and Corvettes and them things leaked so much you really did not need to change the oil on them, just keep putting in fresh. Now days I take care of all kind of equipment, mostly gas, and many have well over 100,000 miles with not a drop of oil on the bottom side of things.

As for fuel prices, they are not going to get any better. The cost per mile to drive a diesel truck versus a gas truck when only looking at fuel is the same. In my area Gas is $3.09 and Diesel is $3.50.

My two Diesel trucks have expensive tires that last about 35,000 max, air filters, fuel filters, oil filters, and hold 15 qts of oil. When you consider all that and averaging 17 mpg I am still better off driving my 1/2 ton at 13 mpg average. I do not even take them out unless there is 10,000# to 25,000# to tow. Any thing less and the Gasser does just fine.

Also, order what you want. I have bought well over 20 new vehicles and only 4 or 5 were off the lot. I know what I want and just order it. That way you can get the vehicle you want, not what the dealer thinks you want and yes, you can get that $750 engine upgrade then.

Chris

 

[LD1]

My two Diesel trucks have expensive tires that last about 35,000 max, air filters, fuel filters, oil filters, and hold 15 qts of oil. When you consider all that and averaging 17 mpg I am still better off driving my 1/2 ton at 13 mpg average. I do not even take them out unless there is 10,000# to 25,000# to tow. Any thing less and the Gasser does just fine.


Chris

But if they scaled down the diesel a bit, it would NOT need 15 qts of oil. And if you put it in a 1/2 ton, tires would be the same as if you owned a gasser, so thats a wask. And even gas motors need theair filters, fuel filters, oil filters, etc.

There are other thigs that can go wrong on a diesel like injector pumps, turbos, etc.

But gassers have ignition systems with plugs and wires which takes a little more comples computer to operate. In diesels its only about fuel/injector timing. Gassers have that as well as the ignition system. So IMO things like regular maintenance is a wash between the two. I am looking at strictly an economy standpoint. Diesels ARE more efficent PERIOD. But not when we get locked into a HP war and everyone thinks that 750HP is a must for a 1-ton truck. My trailer is only 7k. I have no need to tow anything heavier. Thus I don't need more than a 1/2 ton. My 5.3 gasser in my 03 is only like 285HP and maybe 330 on torque. I get 16-17MPG empty and 10-11 with the 7k back there. Since I have no trouble at all towing, IF a mfg would make me a diesel with 285HP and 330 torque, I dont see why I couldn't get 30+ empty and maybe 25 loaded. THAT would be worth it to me.

And to the point of diesels being $6000 more. WHY? Is it demand, or do you really think it cost them that much more to make?? Granted, everything is built a little heavier, but if we scaled it down, it wouldn't be THAT much beefier than current gassers. And without the ignition system/coils/plugs, etc. That would save a little as well. I don't get it???

 

[JasG]

But if they scaled down the diesel a bit, it would NOT need 15 qts of oil. And if you put it in a 1/2 ton, tires would be the same as if you owned a gasser, so thats a wask. And even gas motors need theair filters, fuel filters, oil filters, etc.

There are other thigs that can go wrong on a diesel like injector pumps, turbos, etc.

But gassers have ignition systems with plugs and wires which takes a little more comples computer to operate. In diesels its only about fuel/injector timing. Gassers have that as well as the ignition system. So IMO things like regular maintenance is a wash between the two. I am looking at strictly an economy standpoint. Diesels ARE more efficent PERIOD. But not when we get locked into a HP war and everyone thinks that 750HP is a must for a 1-ton truck. My trailer is only 7k. I have no need to tow anything heavier. Thus I don't need more than a 1/2 ton. My 5.3 gasser in my 03 is only like 285HP and maybe 330 on torque. I get 16-17MPG empty and 10-11 with the 7k back there. Since I have no trouble at all towing, IF a mfg would make me a diesel with 285HP and 330 torque, I dont see why I couldn't get 30+ empty and maybe 25 loaded. THAT would be worth it to me.

And to the point of diesels being $6000 more. WHY? Is it demand, or do you really think it cost them that much more to make?? Granted, everything is built a little heavier, but if we scaled it down, it wouldn't be THAT much beefier than current gassers. And without the ignition system/coils/plugs, etc. That would save a little as well. I don't get it???

More and more it is becoming clear are not familar with a modern diesel. By that I mean even in a 2003 and newer truck, even late 90's model. The new diesels are more complicated with more computers, sensors and things to go wrong than any gas I know of. They now have everything a gas does except spark plugs. In place of that they have exhaust filters and injectors that are much more complicated than a gas injector. Diesels now have as much as 30000 psi injecting fuel and some are injecting fuel several times per power stroke, and the newest Ford and Chevy have exhaust fliud injection systems. The injectors are electric now.

New Ford Powerstroke to use piezo injectors? — Autoblog

EGR causes all kinds of problems for diesel engines. The days of the diesel being a simple engine died in the late 1990s and are gone forever.

 

[Diamondpilot]

More and more it is becoming clear are not familar with a modern diesel. By that I mean even in a 2003 and newer truck, even late 90's model. The new diesels are more complicated with more computers, sensors and things to go wrong than any gas I know of. They now have everything a gas does except spark plugs. In place of that they have exhaust filters and injectors that are much more complicated than a gas injector. Diesels now have as much as 30000 psi injecting fuel and some are injecting fuel several times per power stroke, and the newest Ford and Chevy have exhaust fliud injection systems. The injectors are electric now.

New Ford Powerstroke to use piezo injectors? — Autoblog

EGR causes all kinds of problems for diesel engines. The days of the diesel being a simple engine died in the late 1990s and are gone forever.

You hit the nail on the head. Dont forget they also run at about 20:1 compression ratio compared to a gas motor at about 9:1. Because of these pressures heat and strength are a big factor. This requires larger oil systems, cooling systems, stronger blocks and heads, and the list goes on.

Don't get me wrong. If you need a diesel you need a diesel. But the previous poster has not factored in the real numbers. The gas 1/2 ton is plenty to tow 7,000# every once in a while. I did the numbers many times over when I bought my last two diesel trucks and there was no way to make it work on paper. $100 oil changes if you do it yourself, $60 air filters every 15,000 miles, $35 fuel filters every 30,000 miles, higher fuel cost, and a $8000 premium for the engine up front made the 12 mpg Ford V-10 look better and better. The problem was I needed a diesel for what I tow.

The simple math is even if you could double the mpg in reality it take over 200,000 miles to break even.

Chris

 

[LD1]

I understand the need for everything to be bigger in a diesel. And I'll admit that both gas and diesels have an aweful lot of complex and expensive systems, sensors, computers, etc. But I don't need it to 750HP bigger. Scale it down a bit. As already mentioned, they are already making smaller diesels in other countries similar to what I am after. Just do that here as well. Maybe I dont understand enough about the newer engines, but what can I say, I am old school. But I still dont see why it would cost 6k more for a 300ish HP diesel for a 1/2 ton pickup. You can buy a SECOND v8 gas motor for that much. Does a smaller diesel really have twice as much iron/parts/sensors/computers than a modern gasser???

 

[jagyzf]

I understand the need for everything to be bigger in a diesel. And I'll admit that both gas and diesels have an aweful lot of complex and expensive systems, sensors, computers, etc. But I don't need it to 750HP bigger. Scale it down a bit. As already mentioned, they are already making smaller diesels in other countries similar to what I am after. Just do that here as well. Maybe I dont understand enough about the newer engines, but what can I say, I am old school. But I still dont see why it would cost 6k more for a 300ish HP diesel for a 1/2 ton pickup. You can buy a SECOND v8 gas motor for that much. Does a smaller diesel really have twice as much iron/parts/sensors/computers than a modern gasser???

The reason it pays in Europe is fuel is 3 times the cost it is over here, and people are brought up around smaller cars, with less power. Diesels due this were and still are worth having. Diesel was a way of life long before the emissions controls used today, here diesel never really caught on. People want powerful larger cars and trucks.

The current high price has more to do with the emissions than the HP output. I read the cost of that alone adds $2000.00 to a small diesel, and can run to $10000.00+ in larger ones.

As Diamondpilot points out the numbers just don't work out. I too have run the calculations he is talking about and for a while now, unless you tow a lot, it just doesn't make sence.

 

[Diamondpilot]

I for one would love to have 750 HP. The biggest diesel engine offered by any of the manufactures is Fords Powerstroke making 400 HP and 800 FT TQ.

So having a gas engine like this new Ford V6 making 365 HP and 420 FT TQ and doing all this at low rpms like a diesel does for a $750 up charge is a barging when looking at the up charge of 10 times that for a diesel. All this can be done while still having a 11,000# plus tow rating.

Like I said before, it would take 200,000 miles or so to offset the cost to the break even point for a diesel engine. By that time the longevity of the diesel engine is a mute point because the average person wears the truck out well before the engine.

Chris

 

[LD1]

I for one would love to have 750 HP. The biggest diesel engine offered by any of the manufactures is Fords Powerstroke making 400 HP and 800 FT TQ.

So having a gas engine like this new Ford V6 making 365 HP and 420 FT TQ and doing all this at low rpms like a diesel does for a $750 up charge is a barging when looking at the up charge of 10 times that for a diesel. All this can be done while still having a 11,000# plus tow rating.

Like I said before, it would take 200,000 miles or so to offset the cost to the break even point for a diesel engine. By that time the longevity of the diesel engine is a mute point because the average person wears the truck out well before the engine.

Chris

I appologize. I was confusing the torque with HP. But same difference either way. When my 330ft-lb gasser will do the job I need, I don't need 750. Scale it down a bit. 400ft-lbs and 250 HP would work just fine for me, provided it gets good mileage.