Ford V-6 beats v-8's in towing competition

[WH401]

What current diesel is getting over 20 MPG in a 3/4 or 1 ton truck in the real world? Before EGR, SCR and the prarticulate filters with a regeneration cycle maybe. I have many friends with 07 and newer diesels and none I know of them are over 18 and several are in the 12-14 range and many are not happy. These are Ford, Dodge and Chevy guys, some work there trucks, some do not. All have had older trucks that had better MPG than there current trucks. Some with tool bodys that there older trucks are in the 16-18 MPG range, the newer ones are around 9-10. Ford is just claiming to have "gotten back" some of the milage they have lost over the past few years with this newest engine.

Not to say some are getting better, but I don't know of any or have I been able to find any reading online in truck forum. We just went back with our work truck from diesel to gas after trying an 09 duramax for a couple of days and getting 15 MPG. We bought a chevy gas that we use to plow the parking lot and chase after parts. It gets over 10 with the plow on it and around 14 without.

In 2007 the higher emission standards took effect which they had to increase EGR to lower emissions. This is very bad to a diesel and when they added the exhaust filters in 2009 or 10 this catches soot that EGR increases. To clean the filters they have "active regeneration" that puts fuel in this filter to burn off the soot. This greatly reduced MPG in all diesel engines that use this and since 2003 when they 1st started using EGR it reduced engine life.

This stuff hasn't worked it's way down to small diesels yet but it will. It is currently on all new over 100 hp tractors and constuction equipment. The newest emissions controls SCR or DEF seems to be a good way to go. These spray a liquid into the exhaust to clean up the NOx. The liquid is urea based and isn't cheap. These systems are just now coming out, but have been used in Europe for a few years.

If they can drop the EGR, and only use after treatments then milage and engine life will come back.

1/1/07 was when diesel particulate filters were first required on all consumer pickups in the U.S. Dodge had it on their new 6.7, Ford on the 6.4, and GM added it to the 6.6 Duramax. Originally active regeneration was used to clean these filters. Every so often, when the filter would get full, large amounts of fuel would be dumped into the cylinders and increase the EGT to over 1200F. This high temperature would then burn all of the built up soot cleanly out of the filter. Though, this process not only wasted fuel, (which created horrible fuel mileage for these MY trucks), but it also caused high fuel dilution percentages in the oil. Not to mention is was a pretty new system so it still had it's quirks here and there.

Fast forward to the introduction of the 2011 engines such as the 6.7 Powerstroke and the redesigned 6.6 Duramax. Both still have DPF's, but the main difference is they use Urea injection to after treat the exhaust. Instead of having large amounts of fuel injected into the cylinders, (there is actually now an injector in the exhaust stream right in front of the dpf, but there isn't nearly the same amount of raw fuel used as in previous models), the trucks inject Urea into the exhaust stream which largely helps the exhaust cleaning process without costing you MPG. Now that urea keeps the exhaust clean, OEM's are able to tune the engines for power and mileage. Both of these new engines have easily been attaining 20+ on the highway. The Powerstroke probably slightly more actually because of it's high 6th gear combined with an available 3.31 axle ratio. To top it all off, the MPG gain from using Urea is huge, and typical costs for Urea are around $2.50 - 3 a gallon. The Urea tanks on both trucks are expected to go for a complete oil change, (around 7.5k miles, give or take). I don't know about everyone else, but to me that's more than worth it for that much of a bump in MPG.

 

[jagyzf]

I'm not sure what you're saying. All cars computers are full of fuel maps, its how they run. Not all have torque or power management.

Commercial diesels have torque or hp managment because the same motor goes in multiple chassis and the manufacturer doesn't want to destroy rear ends and transmissions so they use a lower peak mapping. Its easy to cut off a driveshaft in low gears and heavy loads in a heavy truck that the owner has remapped to the highest fuelling.

Farm equipment power boost lets the engine operate at higher hp when there are pto or hydraulic loads that aren't transmitted via the powertrain so the increased power won't destroy things. Its really not a power boost, its just a torque/power management. Many have an additional torque limiter on the mapping so you don't have full torque in low gears that would blow an axle to smithereens.

What I am talking about is the same truck with the same motor had different power ratings. A good friend of mine bought a Peterbuilt that was about 500 Hp. He had it "upgraded" to 550 Hp when he was driving it himself for quicker cycles through hills etc. Then when he hired a guy to drive it (also fuel prices were on the rise) he had it remapped again down bellow 500. This saved fuel and wear and tear on the truck. This wasn't power managment this was just the program itself. Yes some trucks and tractors may have different parts, but a large number do not, the only difference is peak power.

 

[jagyzf]

1/1/07 was when diesel particulate filters were first required on all consumer pickups in the U.S. Dodge had it on their new 6.7, Ford on the 6.4, and GM added it to the 6.6 Duramax. Originally active regeneration was used to clean these filters. Every so often, when the filter would get full, large amounts of fuel would be dumped into the cylinders and increase the EGT to over 1200F. This high temperature would then burn all of the built up soot cleanly out of the filter. Though, this process not only wasted fuel, (which created horrible fuel mileage for these MY trucks), but it also caused high fuel dilution percentages in the oil. Not to mention is was a pretty new system so it still had it's quirks here and there.

Fast forward to the introduction of the 2011 engines such as the 6.7 Powerstroke and the redesigned 6.6 Duramax. Both still have DPF's, but the main difference is they use Urea injection to after treat the exhaust. Instead of having large amounts of fuel injected into the cylinders, (there is actually now an injector in the exhaust stream right in front of the dpf, but there isn't nearly the same amount of raw fuel used as in previous models), the trucks inject Urea into the exhaust stream which largely helps the exhaust cleaning process without costing you MPG. Now that urea keeps the exhaust clean, OEM's are able to tune the engines for power and mileage. Both of these new engines have easily been attaining 20+ on the highway. The Powerstroke probably slightly more actually because of it's high 6th gear combined with an available 3.31 axle ratio. To top it all off, the MPG gain from using Urea is huge, and typical costs for Urea are around $2.50 - 3 a gallon. The Urea tanks on both trucks are expected to go for a complete oil change, (around 7.5k miles, give or take). I don't know about everyone else, but to me that's more than worth it for that much of a bump in MPG.

Where are you seeing information 20+? Not to say it doesn't exist, just seems too good to be true. The few test I've seen and a couple of postings on-line I have seen are 16-18 for either Ford or Chevy. Ford one claim I saw was about a 15% increase. If it's over 20 MPG that would be about 40%. From what I have read both engines still use EGR along with SCR, EGR hurts economy on it's own, it wasn't just the filter.

 

[WH401]

Where are you seeing information 20+? Not to say it doesn't exist, just seems too good to be true. The few test I've seen and a couple of postings on-line I have seen are 16-18 for either Ford or Chevy. Ford one claim I saw was about a 15% increase. If it's over 20 MPG that would be about 40%. From what I have read both engines still use EGR along with SCR, EGR hurts economy on it's own, it wasn't just the filter.

I'm not at my computer right now so I'll quote you some threads later. Egr itself has always hurt, but at no where near the rates at which the addition of high tech emissions equipment such as dpf's and active regeneration did. EGR isn't a filter at all. It's an emissions control system on the engine that recirculates a percentage of exhaust gas back into the intake of the engine to be reburned for cleaner emissions. A dpf is the filter that runs in line on the actual exhaust system.

 

[jagyzf]

I'm not at my computer right now so I'll quote you some threads later. Egr itself has always hurt, but at no where near the rates at which the addition of high tech emissions equipment such as dpf's and active regeneration did. EGR isn't a filter at all. It's an emissions control system on the engine that recirculates a percentage of exhaust gas back into the intake of the engine to be reburned for cleaner emissions. A dpf is the filter that runs in line on the actual exhaust system.

I know what EGR is, same as on a car. It is not for reburn at all, it puts cooled already burned air (without oxygen) into the combustion chamber. It lowers combustion temps and cuts NOx because of the lower temps. It increases soot and there for dosen't always lower all emissions. The filters are for soot which is to some degree the nature of diesel, but made worse by EGR which is dirty air. Increased soot and lower temps equal less power, and more fuel.

 

[canoetrpr]

I have put them on my 3 Ford diesels and maybe saw a 1 mpg increase but I did it just for the fun factor.

If you do the math lets say the average 1/2 ton gasser gets 15mpg and gas is $3.00 per gallon. Thats $.20 per mile. Now lets say you can manage 17mpg with one of these tuners and the fuel is still $3.00 per gallon. You are now at $.18 per mile. Lets say the average person drives 15,000 miles a year. You are only saving $300 per year. Most of these tuners are that much or more so its a 20,000 mile repay item.

Chris

My gut feel talking to friends and such is that the ECU tuning does work on diesel's. The same companies that make the tuners claim it also works on gassers.

I still scratch my head about why aren't the manufacturers doing whatever the aftermarket tuning does.

 

[Diamondpilot]

My gut feel talking to friends and such is that the ECU tuning does work on diesel's. The same companies that make the tuners claim it also works on gassers.

I still scratch my head about why aren't the manufacturers doing whatever the aftermarket tuning does.

There is no free lunch. Boosting power takes away reliability and longevity. Limiting power puts more strain on other components as well. They manufactures are trying to give the best of both worlds and give the public what most buyers want.

Lets face it, until fuel is $8.00 per gallon like it is most everywhere else in the world we as Americans and Canadians will not change as a whole.

Chris

 

[Ford850]

If you seriously think Ford is putting out all these "real world tests" without knowing and fabricating the exact outcome then your as gullible as the rest. Want to buy some ocean-front property in Wyoming? :laughing:

They absolutley pre-run some of the tests, through research. But they stacked torture test on top of torture test (knowing the results or not) while running the same engine and in the end ran that same engine in the Baja 1000. Are you saying the Baja 1000 was fabricated? I really don't care if they knew the exact outcome of the engine in that race. There is no way to fake that, and by that time in the series of tests it proves the engine is more durable than many doubters have said it would be. If they were 100% certain ahead of all of these tests that the engine would not only endure but beat some of the much larger competitors, then they deserve even more credit. This is an engine that will be good for all of us as it pushes all brands to keep up with each other.

 

[slowzuki]

Simple, they ignore the emission requirements the manufacturers is required to meet.

For diesels, the manufacturers are limited by NOx, they can't advance the injection timing into the best efficiency range because it makes piles of smog producing NOx.

My gut feel talking to friends and such is that the ECU tuning does work on diesel's. The same companies that make the tuners claim it also works on gassers.

I still scratch my head about why aren't the manufacturers doing whatever the aftermarket tuning does.

 

[WH401]

I know what EGR is, same as on a car. It is not for reburn at all, it puts cooled already burned air (without oxygen) into the combustion chamber. It lowers combustion temps and cuts NOx because of the lower temps. It increases soot and there for dosen't always lower all emissions. The filters are for soot which is to some degree the nature of diesel, but made worse by EGR which is dirty air. Increased soot and lower temps equal less power, and more fuel.

Do you realize how contradicting of a statement that is? "It's not for reburn at all, it just puts already burned air into the combustion chamber"? lol. EGR = Exhaust Gas Recirculation, it's most definitely "reburn". Simply put, EGR, is/does nothing more than recirculate cooled exhaust gas back through the engine to be "reburned". When the gas is recirculated it's not like it's cooled to refrigeration temperatures. Coolant typically flows around the EGR itself, (depending on the design of the system or how the particular engines EGR system works), cooling the gas to near coolant temps, usually close to around 190 degrees, +/-. A temp of that nature has no effect what so ever on fuel usage...it's the quality of the air that effects the fuel.