Big Multi Year Project About to Begin...help!

[nybirdman]

Good luck with your project,quite an undertaking.My only thought is...a town road that you are going to improve..no doubt "traffic is going to increase and there is nothing you can do about it.I can hear it now..**** we been coming up here for years..yikes.Probably mostly for hunting,four-wheeling ect.
I would approach the town and see if you could make it a private road.Sounds like you are going to do the up-keep and snow removal.

 

[Localmotion]

Good luck with the project - I really look forward to following your progress on TBN.

Regarding the self sufficiency aspect, there is a really good contact (albeit in the UK) who has done vey similar to yourselves - the father Dick Strawbridge is actually the UK prsenter of Scrapheap Challenge (Junkyard Wars). Their website may well be of interest to you, so see some of the projects they have undertaken: http://www.newhousefarm.tv

:thumbsup:

 

[beppington]

Oops, I forgot about it becoming an actual town road. I still think you need to grade it to create ditches on the sides & raise the road height, but I don't see how you can avoid bringing in material, whether gravel, or limerock, etc.

 

[DAY]

It's hard to tell from the pix- is it one lane? Do other properties adjoin/have access to "your" road? I think you initially said it was surrounded on 4 sides by National Forest. Who put the road in, and why- just for access to the land you are buying? Maybe it was simply a logging road a long time ago. You don't have to answer me/us, but be sure YOU know the answers. Road building ain't cheap, but, as someone said, if you have a gravel pit, you have a good head start.

The used municipal truck and plow is a good idea. So is getting something with tracks. Even a small, old dozer will do more work in less time than a fancy new CUT.

finally: The old saw "Measure twice, cut once" is applicable to a lot more than carpentry!

 

[dave1949]

Well, that is less 'road' than I pictured. If you are going to bring that up to carrying log trucks, etc. and be able to get concrete delivered for your building projects, you have a challenge. Any chance there is a base of 'bank run' gravel under it? One of the wet spots looks like there might be some there.

If you put culverts in where needed and rock the wet spots, that lane will hold some traffic as long as you stay off it when it's soggy.

One question is, how long before you want to start building? If you have 2-3 years to work on the road, that would help.

I would recommend hiring or buying an excavator and make a first pass where you fix all the really ugly areas, get all your culverts in, etc. I would try to do it right the first time , you will have plenty of maintenance without dealing with something that was done marginal to begin with.

You might find a contractor that does town roads in your area. They have the equipment and usually reasonable prices on large quantities of stone. If cost is an issue, be upfront and tell them you want to work on it over a period of several years where every year the road gets better until it's done.

You mentioned steel culverts, the smooth interior plastic culverts are good too. Easier to handle and don't rust. You need to bed and cover them 12" or so with fines before putting on the gnarly stuff. A mid to heavy front end loader can punch the big rocks into the culvert with down pressure on the bucket. If installed correctly, I think they are better than steel.

Dave.

 

[Sulla]

Great comments thanks.

We are quite literally surrounded on all four sides by national forest. Seems everybody except the folks with this property gave the land to the government. This road actually runs through the North Eastern third of the property. It intersects with another town road, not much better than this one at the Western terminus of the property.

There is another, better road parallel to mine that is maintained by the Forest service in the summer time. The only problem is that from the forest service road to my property the road is used as a snowmobile trail in the Winter. It is the primary North/South corridor so I don't want to mess with it. Plus we like to snowmobile and having the trail here is nice.

No one uses these roads other than for snowmobiling and hiking, they don't go anywhere. All three just kinda stop in the woods and turn into deliverance country. I'm not too worried about increased traffic, though I suppose anything is possible.

The town is very small, 300 people, and they are very cooperative so far. Whatever I want to do with the road is fine with them as long as they don't have to pay for it.

I don't think there is any road bed underneath the mud. I think it was simply a hastily built logging road that was turned over to the town when the logging company finished, what looks like thirty years ago. With any luck I'll find some gravel on the property. I scouted out a couple of dry river beds, I'm hoping to dig a few test pits in the next few weeks to see what's what.

I don't need to be in for five years, though I'd like to be all set up in three. My goals for this year are to bring the road up to a reasonable standard, though certainly not town specs. Establish base camp and put up a kit barn or some other building to store my equipment. And clear a couple of acres to prepare for next years growing season.

As for the road I'm thinking about putting in 18" inch culverts at the four water breaks,maybe adding a fifth. Dig out the mud to get down to what is most likely clay. Putting down a layer of rough gravel roll it and then bring in the good stuff for the road surface. I think it's going to cost more than I'd hoped. But better to do it right the first time.

Or I could just steal the forest service's gravel!

Any additional ideas would be welcomed.

 

[Sulla]

Well, that is less 'road' than I pictured. If you are going to bring that up to carrying log trucks, etc. and be able to get concrete delivered for your building projects, you have a challenge. Any chance there is a base of 'bank run' gravel under it? One of the wet spots looks like there might be some there.

If you put culverts in where needed and rock the wet spots, that lane will hold some traffic as long as you stay off it when it's soggy.

One question is, how long before you want to start building? If you have 2-3 years to work on the road, that would help.

I would recommend hiring or buying an excavator and make a first pass where you fix all the really ugly areas, get all your culverts in, etc. I would try to do it right the first time , you will have plenty of maintenance without dealing with something that was done marginal to begin with.

You might find a contractor that does town roads in your area. They have the equipment and usually reasonable prices on large quantities of stone. If cost is an issue, be upfront and tell them you want to work on it over a period of several years where every year the road gets better until it's done.

You mentioned steel culverts, the smooth interior plastic culverts are good too. Easier to handle and don't rust. You need to bed and cover them 12" or so with fines before putting on the gnarly stuff. A mid to heavy front end loader can punch the big rocks into the culvert with down pressure on the bucket. If installed correctly, I think they are better than steel.

Dave.

I'll look into the plastic culverts, easy to handle and no rust sounds good to me.

 

[MikeD74T]

Good luck with your project,quite an undertaking.My only thought is...a town road that you are going to improve..no doubt "traffic is going to increase and there is nothing you can do about it.I can hear it now..**** we been coming up here for years..yikes.Probably mostly for hunting,four-wheeling ect.
I would approach the town and see if you could make it a private road.Sounds like you are going to do the up-keep and snow removal.

Sulla, From your description we might even be neighbors. I'm about 2 miles west of Mt. Cabot, north of the Presidentials???
As for applying for a private road, I'd advise against even asking. Would need a vote of the town which is not likely to pass & will most likely make you more enemies than friends. Just the fact that you have a Mercedes is bad enough. Don't know where you're from right now but NH takes land access much differently than many other states. Ask around to find out who hunts the area & get to know them. Most will keep an eye on your place & your stuff when you're not around. MikeD74T

 

[aczlan]

Most will keep an eye on your place & your stuff when you're not around. MikeD74T

And if they know who's stuff it is, they will know who shouldn't be there using the equipment.

Aaron Z

 

[schmism]

I've never made a road or even graded, but this seems logical to me - Maybe somebody can correct if it's wrong:

I'd start with a rear blade, or grading scraper, tilted at a 4-degree angle

I think your vastly underestimating the amount of time and material needed to get started on the road aspect of his project.

Personally i wouldnt consider attacking more than about a half a mile of road with standard tractor implements.

By my math he has at least 1 mile and as much as 3 miles of road he is going to need to maintain not to mention plow snow in the winter (you do remember he's in northern New Hampshire)

at that point youve hit real motor grader status. My local CL currently lists about 7 different motor graders ranging from 5-20K all in workable condition.

I also think a standard light duty one ton dump isnt going to cut it. I have one and its barely large enough for me and my 400' of drive and parking area.
for a mile+ of road you really need to consider a F800 or the like.

 

[schmism]

as for your self sufficiency goals.

what experience do you currently have with gardening and raseing livestock?

It took us 3 years to learn our way into a large vegi garden and we still dont have a 100% solid grasp on what it takes. (due to such a small data set on weather conditions and planting times, grow times, harvest dates, etc)

nothing worse than banking on a second (fall) crop of something and neglect to get it in early enough (aka middle of summer) and find out its all going to die in a hard freeze a week before you can harvest anything off of it and now your stuck with only half what you expected to get you through winter for canned/frozen goods.

How are you set for equipment for a large garden? do you currently have tillers? do you have the flat farm space for a row crop garden maintained by CUT tractor (see bayou gardner for an example YouTube - webcajun's Channel)

I can use 3 different tillers on my garden not including my turn plow. from my 5' rear tine tiller on the CUT to the 2' gravely walk behind (and rotary plow) to the mantis. all in all i use 4 different mechanized tools to maintain my garden. I have only one small hoop house and we only use it to start early greens and run late greens as well as other seeds we transplant. I would assume that in your climate you would have to have a full size hoop house as well as a traditional green house for starting seedlings.

We did pasture raised chicken this year for the first time. but i had been raising a layer flock for 3 years with a fresh batch of chicks each spring so it was realitvly easy to move to the broilers. I copied heavily off of Salatin's setup for both processing and movable pasture pens.
same could be done for his timber raised hogs and pasture raised cattle. although take care to note the breeds he chose to use, its important.

Are you ready to build 2 to 3 or more out buildings? Are you going to have the equipment to make your own hay? figure on a second tractor (something more than a CUT) and another 10-20K for entry lvl used hay equipment if you do plan on haying. It sounds easy to keep livestock till you start counting costs for fenceing, buildings and equipment all to support it. Will you process your own livestock? if so plan on having a clean room to do that in. dont expect to be able to do that in the garage or kitchen of your house. Ive heard converted shipping containers work well but again... expect the cost to outfit it with stainless tables and washable surfaces.

how do you plan on dealing with bulk feed? plan on having grain bins? or just useing old grain carts? Going to mix/grind your own feed? if so plan on a mixer grinder. dont forget to include a livestock trailer.

how are you on canning? we have been doing it for 2 years now and some things we can do well, but others we still struggle at. Its taken us at least that long to pull together enough equipment also to determine what works best for us and what quantities it makes sence to process things in.

Dont under estimate how long it will take to establish berry plants. We are on year 3 of ours and still struggling with the blue berries although the strawberries did well last year and are set to do even better this. Although our first year we put the strawberries in was a near 100% failure. I was able to get replacements but had to wait till the next year setting back the schedule of when we were going to have them. We planted new fruit trees also but know not to expect much for 3 years if not more. (I dont know if youll be able to do fruit trees in your area) The cultivated raspberries/blackberries have been a complete failure (two years in a row) but we are lucky that we have wild versions of both so not so much an issue for us.

I also started bee keeping and my first year i started with splits that came late in the year from a fellow bee keeper. While free, the hive didnt make it over winter. The next year i bought 2 packages and only one made it. Last year i caught a swarm and while they seemed to do well durring the year, they also didnt make it through the winter. I know keeping bees that far north you will also experience difficulties in the first few years and they have gotten VERY expensive to buy recently. (like doubled in price since i started keeping) But the honey is a great product which will do your farm well.

Solar PV. there are a number of good threads on the forums about guys who live off grid and their trials and tribulations concerning the systems, installs and maintenance. The only real advise i have is choose your site well and for gods sake keep it out of the shade! (wink at 3rrl)

 

[radioman]

Have you looked around and try digging holes on your property and see if there is any packing sand or gravel? look for hills and dig there on the hill and bottom of hill. You might strike gravel or sand. If this becomes a bust, you might want to make friends with local towns and contractors. They may have asphalt milling they dont want to bother recycling or crushed concrete or nearby graveel/stone quarries or mining companies that needs to get rid of unwanted fill.

Either way, you have alot of work ahead of you. roadbuilding can be fun when you have the right equipment otherwise it becomes a money pit and you exhaust your funds before starting your dream.:thumbsup:

 

[DAY]

Have you looked around and try digging holes on your property and see if there is any packing sand or gravel? look for hills and dig there on the hill and bottom of hill. You might strike gravel or sand.

Contact the Extension Service, befriend your County Agent, get Soil Maps of your land. They tell- in great detail- what lies beneath the surface.
Also, check out the local Geezer and Galoot watering hole. My place was built in 1781, and I think a few of the original builders are still around:laughing:- Several old timers have stopped by and told us about the doings here, as far back as the '30's.

 

[forgeblast]

FIY Nourse farms have increadable product. The blackberries and blueberries I recieved from them are amazing and the packing was A+ (the currents were wrapped in foil insulation to make sure they would not freeze and the blueberries had about 6'' of roots on them. I highly recommend them.

 

[Sulla]

I really love this site, lots of good questions and advice from folks doing it now. Let me answer a few questions.

I am originally from New Hampshire and have lived in RI for the last twenty five years while keeping a second home here for most of the last half. That's the house we now live in.

I grew up on a dirt road where my grandfather who was a farmer and a machinist owned one side and my neighbor who was a dairy farmer owned the other. I have spent a good deal of time working on one farm or another for the early part of my life.

Planting and harvesting don't worry me too much. We won't have to count on the harvest to survive just want to. Livestock I have had experience with include dairy cows, pigs, chickens, goats and sheep. I have never raised beef before but am ready to give it a try.

There are a number of local butchers that handle locally raise livestock. I might try my hand with the chicken, the rest will go to the butcher in exchange for a share. At least that's the plan.

The road is about 3/4 of a mile and I suspect I will need to rent an additional loader of some type. I think I can grade with my tractor. Winters are tough/great up here so for now, I'm thinking plow with a one ton. Blow with a three point blower and push back with the loader.

I have no plans on making it a private road. When I was growing up we didn't lock our doors and we all watched out for each other. The road belongs to the town and any improvements we make are our contributions to the community.

We intend to leave the land "open use". It is my understanding that any land not posted is open to the public, we intend on leaving it that way. I will be posting signs indicating it's private property and that anyone reading the sign is free to use it, just please don't shoot my family or my animals. The compound we live in will have am split rail fence around it making it clear that's our homestead, that way I can shoot anyone that comes on to it (NH Live Free or Die, just not on my land).

I'm headed out to dig some test pits in the next week or so mainly to locate septic. I am praying to the gods that we find some gravel. I met with the local gravel provider and he quoted me $16,000 for 1200 cubic yards, which is what he thinks I need, delivered. Pretty good price considering it's almost an hour away. But still it's a lot of money.

I figure we need four buildings, equipment garage goes up first. Livestock barn next. Family home third and bunk house for visitors and under privilege kids who will visit for a week or two as part of a program to change their lives. Eventually I'll put up a green house too, maybe sooner than I think.

As for the Mercedes, we used to be quite well off. After twenty five years I sold my investment firm to a bunch of New York bankers, first mistake. I took half the money in stock, second mistake. In 2009 they screwed me out of my money (nothing new abut that) so I sued them, third mistake. We used up all of our money and when they offered to settle for pennies on the dollar had to take it to pay the lawyers, and I still don't have the money.

So we have some of the trappings of success, two homes and a couple of nice cars, but we're starting all over again. Probably more than need to be written but it will explain the incongruity of my wife driving a Mercedes GL and me worrying over the cost of gravel.

Thanks for all the feedback more to come on Toad Hill Farm project ( that's the name we selected, yupToad hill is the name of the road)

Oh, yes I do know how to can.

Thanks again.

 

[Iplayfarmer]

Oh, yes I do know how to can.

That's going to come in handy.

Just don't learn how to can't.

 

[Sulla]

That's going to come in handy.

Just don't learn how to can't.

Nice...

 

[bigballer]

I need the dirt on my hands to wash off the grime at the end of the day. For me this is therapy.

Sulla,(aka David)

looks like a great project and by the sounds of it you'll have plenty of grime to wash off at the end of the day! It's my therapy too..

 

[Kyle241]

Great project! Like the name too, Toad Hill Farm.

My comments concerning your road is that it will take a lot of gravel to get that solid and dry year round. My previous house had a 1/4 mile drive and the way I made it affordable was using one of the rock walls as base. My current house only has a 400ft drive and it cost me as much as the 1/4 mile due to removing all the topsoil and getting down to solid ground, 1'-2', and then installing pit-run and gravel over that. Unless there is some solid ground on your road, you will likely need to remove 1' or so to get to a solid base and then you need to add back in gravel and raise it above surrounding ground level. Also remember that it will settle over time so make sure it's raised high enough. First steps though is getting some drainage in which is a job all by itself.

I know pouring a lot of money into a driveway sucks as I never like to either but if it's not done right the first time, you will be going back over it again and again which will cost in the long run. Also don't 'finish' it off if you are planning to build a number of years from now. All the construction trucks will beat down a nice drive so it would be better to leave it rough and finish it after the heavy trucks/equipment are out of there.

I'll be following this thread. Good luck!

 

[Sulla]

Great project! Like the name too, Toad Hill Farm.



I know pouring a lot of money into a driveway sucks as I never like to either but if it's not done right the first time, you will be going back over it again and again which will cost in the long run. Also don't 'finish' it off if you are planning to build a number of years from now. All the construction trucks will beat down a nice drive so it would be better to leave it rough and finish it after the heavy trucks/equipment are out of there.

I'll be following this thread. Good luck!

Couldn't agree more. I spoke to the local road contractor, big outfit, who is also the go to guy for gravel. Fortunately he is pretty familiar with the area. He thinks if my tuck made it through, which it did, the we've got enough base to just put inch and a half gravel over it at a depth of about three inches, then put down three quarter inch on top, for a total of six inches. I'm inclined to believe him. I went in asking for nine to ten inches of gravel and that's how he makes his living. Guy also has a good reputation.

I have a guy working for me who has built roads in the past and he thinks it might work. Who am I to argue with spending less money. The gravel guy quoted me $130 per 18 yard truckload for the gravel and $120 for delivery, it's about two hours there an back. Seems like a fair price to me. He also agreed to deliver as needed, meaning I don't need a staging area, nor do I have to do it all in a day or two.

I lucked out on drainage. Whoever put the road in put in decent ditches and water breaks. I'm going to clean out the ditches either with my backhoe or a blade and probably seed them, so i'l I have to do is mow. Maybe some RAP on the bottom, but I don't like the way it looks.

I've given in and decide to use the plastic culverts. Too many people who know what they are doing have been emphatic on this point. What I don't like about plastic is what makes it a good choice, it last forever and the land will never reclaim it.

The water breaks are already in and pretty deep. All I need to do is dig them out and drop the pipes in. Thus with any luck I'm done for less than $20,000.

Now if I can find some gravel Monday when heading out with the surveyor, that number could come down a lot.

Done once correctly is always less expensive than doing it over and over again.

Thanks for your thoughts.