Hello

[Ken AZ]

Hi All,

New to the forum and looking to purchase my first utility tractor/mower. I'm considering a Ventrac 4200 or a PT 425. I'm leaning towards the PT because of price and overall versatility. However, I'm really concerned about the Subaru/Robin engine. From what I've read, it looks like it is the 'weak link' in the PT system. I called PT and they said the 425 is only available with the Robin engine. So, my question. When did PT stop using the Kohler engine and where should I look for a used PT 425 with a Kohler?

I'm retired and live in rural east/central Arizona on 30 acres of high desert juniper and grass. Primary uses will be mowing about 4 acres of uneven ground around the house (two to three times a year) and bucket work - hauling gravel, mulch, road maintenance and general landscaping. I could probably get by with the Ventrac without the FEL, but really like the versatility of the PT. I'm afraid that if I get the Ventrac, I'll end up wishing I got the PT once I experience first hand the value of a small utility tractor.

Thanks in advance.

Ken

 

[J_J]

Look here for some used Power-Trac's.

Used Power Tracs

 

[MossRoad]

Welcome to TBN!

Not sure of the year PT stopped using Kohler engines. I love my 2001 with the Kohler, though. :laughing:

However, newer models of PT425s have a higher lift height and some other design changes that make them a better machine. Also, I think I read somewhere that the newer PTs with the Robin engines have fuel injection, which seems to help with cold weather starting.

What temps do you experience in your part of AZ?

 

[Ken AZ]

JJ,

Thanks for the link.

MR,

We get into the high 90's for a couple of weeks in the summer and usually in the low 20's during the winter. However, this winter we hit -10 degrees on two different occasions. We always get snow in the winter, but usually only 6-10 inches and only for a week at a time.

 

[Gravy]

AZ Ken,

As far as I know, the Robin's biggest weakness is starting in cold weather. There have been a few other problems, but the Kohler has a few serious problems too. Even Honda V-twins have some serious issues. They are all built to a price point, they all have weak spots, and none of them are as reliable as a Toyota Camry.

If you don't need it to start in sub-freezing temperatures without outside help, the Robin should do just fine.

 

[Clumber]

AZ Ken,

As far as I know, the Robin's biggest weakness is starting in cold weather. There have been a few other problems, but the Kohler has a few serious problems too. Even Honda V-twins have some serious issues. They are all built to a price point, they all have weak spots, and none of them are as reliable as a Toyota Camry.

If you don't need it to start in sub-freezing temperatures without outside help, the Robin should do just fine.

It is my recent experience that the newer PT 425s with the Robin EH72D engine does not have the starting issues that plagued older machines. I bought one in Dec 2010. It was stored this Winter in an unheated garage. It would start on 2-3 tries at full choke and run smoothly quickly even at 15 degrees. I think the easier starting comes from being equipped with a larger battery, bigger starter, and hotter plugs.

PT still does not use the Fuel Injected Robin engine in the PT 425s. It is hoped that they will do so in the future.

 

[Ken AZ]

It is my recent experience that the newer PT 425s with the Robin EH72D engine does not have the starting issues that plagued older machines. I bought one in Dec 2010. It was stored this Winter in an unheated garage. It would start on 2-3 tries at full choke and run smoothly quickly even at 15 degrees. I think the easier starting comes from being equipped with a larger battery, bigger starter, and hotter plugs.

PT still does not use the Fuel Injected Robin engine in the PT 425s. It is hoped that they will do so in the future.

Clumber,

I really appreciate the first hand current information. I guess I thought this might be the case, as PT is still in business, even with the bad economy.

But your reply brings up more questions. With hotter plugs (and I assume no other engineering change) won't the engine run hotter and thus have an overall shorter life? Also, what effect, if any, would my elevation (5740') have on a non injected engine with hotter plugs?

Again, thanks for all your responses.

 

[sandman2234]

Welccome Ken!!
I am limited in my experience to only seeing one PT, so I will leave this discussion to the more experienced, but wanted welcome you. Don't get over to the other board much these days.
David from jax

 

[toy]

AZ Ken,

As far as I know, the Robin's biggest weakness is starting in cold weather. There have been a few other problems, but the Kohler has a few serious problems too. Even Honda V-twins have some serious issues. They are all built to a price point, they all have weak spots, and none of them are as reliable as a Toyota Camry.

If you don't need it to start in sub-freezing temperatures without outside help, the Robin should do just fine.

You know come to think of it I remember about a year or two ago even on the news they were talking about how good the Toyota Camry is. As well as I remember they was talking about them being unstoppable. Now you can't get better press than that, lol.

 

[Clumber]

Clumber,

I really appreciate the first hand current information. I guess I thought this might be the case, as PT is still in business, even with the bad economy.

But your reply brings up more questions. With hotter plugs (and I assume no other engineering change) won't the engine run hotter and thus have an overall shorter life? Also, what effect, if any, would my elevation (5740') have on a non injected engine with hotter plugs?

Again, thanks for all your responses.

By hotter plugs, I meant related to the old spec for the older engines. These were enhancements Robin made a few years ago to respond to difficult starting complaints here on TBN. This was reported by Robin factory rep and forum member JackRobin. (I tried to find that old post to no avail.) My post is only related to recent expierence with the stock EH72D engine in my PT. We will have to wait for engine life observations.

I really like the Ventracs, my first choice for mowing and snow blowing -- high-tech tractor and attachments -- very expensive -- dealer network, 9% discounts -- not really a loader. PTs -- lower tech but tank-like reliability -- less expensive -- DIY, built with off the shelf parts, 5% discount on tractor only -- excellent loader -- factory difficult to contact during hunting season.

I made a list of chores and projects I would be doing over the next 5 years. I then compared the capabilities of tractor plus attachments vs cost to achieve those objectives. The bottom line was tractor plus attachments cost comparison: PT: $26,000+; Ventrac: $40,000+ -- (with a subset of attachments I thought I really needed).

Overall conclusion: Ventracs are more confortable to use -- PTs are acceptable with several annoyances I can learn to live with and can afford more attachments. Ideal would be two tractors (Ventracs for mowing and snow blowing) -- concluded could not afford both, maintenance required for both...

Note, that FI engines are best choice if available. They are not currently available for PT 425. However, you can always ask PT to drop one in for you. But, don't get your hopes up.

 

[American Bulldog]

Hot plugs do not add any significant heat to the engine. They just have a better spark. This will not shorten the life of the engine, but the plug's life will most likely be shortened, and the ignition system's life may be shortened as well. All modern motors have electronic ignitions, which tend to last forever anyway.

 

[MossRoad]

-- factory difficult to contact during hunting season.
......

-- PTs are acceptable with several annoyances I can learn to live with

Ha! Those are both very true statements from a PT owner. :thumbsup::laughing:

 

[Ken AZ]

Well, I just came across this post on TBN.

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/kubota-buying-pricing/62842-horsepower-loss-vs-elevation.html

It looks like I'll be losing about 4.5 HP because of my altitude, which will give me slightly less HP than the 422 model. The above link doesn't really address hydraulics so I don't know how the reduced HP will effect the GPM, pressure and overall performance of the hydraulic system - which is what the PT's are all about.

IIRC, the main difference between the 425 and the 422 is greater FEL lift, HP and length, ROPS and independent wheel motors. Seems like the independent wheel motors would put more demand on the hydraulics. I also don't know if they use the same hydraulic pumps.

Paying for a 425 and getting the performance of a 422 is not attractive. Does anyone here use a PT 425 close to my altitude - 5740'?

 

[American Bulldog]

Wow that sucks.... I imagine there are HP issues with all the engines at high altitudes. I guess you need to get the mini hoe and excavate yourself back down to sea level, lol.

I can't imagine that the independent wheel motors adds that much load to the hydraulics. The thing that adds all the load is the weight of the machine. PT lists the 425 at only 50 pounds more than the 422, but I don't believe it. Bigger motor, longer lift arms, and rops should add up to more than that.

My 1460 has a 62 HP diesel in it, but it is so heavy that it needs all of that power to go up hills.

 

[MossRoad]

Well, I just came across this post on TBN.

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/kubota-buying-pricing/62842-horsepower-loss-vs-elevation.html

It looks like I'll be losing about 4.5 HP because of my altitude, which will give me slightly less HP than the 422 model. The above link doesn't really address hydraulics so I don't know how the reduced HP will effect the GPM, pressure and overall performance of the hydraulic system - which is what the PT's are all about.

IIRC, the main difference between the 425 and the 422 is greater FEL lift, HP and length, ROPS and independent wheel motors. Seems like the independent wheel motors would put more demand on the hydraulics. I also don't know if they use the same hydraulic pumps.

Paying for a 425 and getting the performance of a 422 is not attractive. Does anyone here use a PT 425 close to my altitude - 5740'?

You cannot look at it like paying for a 425 and getting the performance of a 422 because any machine you purchase will perform with similar losses compared to sea level. You chose to live at a higher elevation, so you know the pros and cons. Did you have to get appliances/HVAC equipment rated for altitude? Is your car tuned for altitude? Also, I would look at other folks with machinery in your location and altitude. See how they have compensated. See if there really is a noticeable difference. See if people purchased larger engines, etc...

Call Power Trac. Tell them your situation. Ask if there are any folks that run Power Tracs at altitude. The Smokey Mountains only go up to 6000' out in VA. Heck, the airport in Tazewell, VA where Power Trac factory is located is at 3000'. Ask if there is a larger Robin engine that could be fitted to your needs to make up for the horse power difference at altitude. If they agree, you will, of course, have to pay for the modification.

 

[pajoube]

Well, I just came across this post on TBN.

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/kubota-buying-pricing/62842-horsepower-loss-vs-elevation.html

It looks like I'll be losing about 4.5 HP because of my altitude, which will give me slightly less HP than the 422 model. The above link doesn't really address hydraulics so I don't know how the reduced HP will effect the GPM, pressure and overall performance of the hydraulic system - which is what the PT's are all about.

IIRC, the main difference between the 425 and the 422 is greater FEL lift, HP and length, ROPS and independent wheel motors. Seems like the independent wheel motors would put more demand on the hydraulics. I also don't know if they use the same hydraulic pumps.

Paying for a 425 and getting the performance of a 422 is not attractive. Does anyone here use a PT 425 close to my altitude - 5740'?

I am at 5000 ft and have a 425. No problems with power lose or even with starting issues at 20 below zero. I do have a tank heater that I leave plugged in during winter months.
PJ

 

[Marks481]

Ask if PT would install the Robin 28FI engine in place of the 25 hp, same footprint of engine, only a few hundred dollars cost.

If you catch them on a slow day...

If enough people ask, maybe they will start offerring it as a factory option.

 

[Ken AZ]

Ask if PT would install the Robin 28FI engine in place of the 25 hp, same footprint of engine, only a few hundred dollars cost.

If you catch them on a slow day...

If enough people ask, maybe they will start offerring it as a factory option.

Tim,

I called PT and talked to Chris about the engine upgrade. Bottom line - no way.

That's too bad. I think the 28FI would be better suited to higher elevations than the 25 carb version - easier starts, more HP and better fuel efficiency.

 

[Ken AZ]

I am at 5000 ft and have a 425. No problems with power lose or even with starting issues at 20 below zero. I do have a tank heater that I leave plugged in during winter months.
PJ

Pajoube,

What attachments do you have and how are you using them? I'm looking at using buckets/blades for moving gravel and maintaining about 300 yards of road and using the brush cutter on about 4 acres.

Have you ever tested your 425 to see just how much it will lift? If it would lift a and transport a bucket full of gravel for a couple hundred yards, that would be fine with me, but it would also be interesting to see how close you could get to the 800 lb stated limit. If I end up purchasing a PT 425, I know I'm going to run that test.

 

[MossRoad]

I am at 5000 ft and have a 425. No problems with power lose or even with starting issues at 20 below zero. I do have a tank heater that I leave plugged in during winter months.
PJ

PJ,
I forgot you were at a higher altitude. :dance1:

Sorry about that.