Is it possible to biuld a vehichle out of wood

[TwinCessnaPilot]

For those who are interested in pinging the geek meter, here are some properties taken from Table C8.1 of the 1949 copy of Bruhn "Analysis and Design of Aircraft Structures"

Ash, Commercial White, at 15% moisture content:
41 lb/ft^3, yield strength 8900 psi (tension) 5250 psi (compression parallel to grain),2250 psi (parallel to grain), 1380 psi (shear strength) , E (stiffness)=1.46E6 psi.

For OAK, the numbers are
45, 7800, 4950, 1870, 1300, 1.49E6

For northern white PINE,
26, 5900, 3840, 780, 640, 1.14E6.

These are not your home depot pieces of wood.

 

[Redneck in training]

Just recently I talked to a guy who does maintenance of the industrial size wind generators. He told me that the blades are made of balsa wood covered by composite. Some are 60ft long.

 

[EE_Bota]

Sure! How about one that will dust your Ferrari!

It's called the Splinter. It was designed at North Carolina State University, School of Industrial Design. Lot's of stuff about it if you Google.

A 240-mph Car Made of WOOD

We're the Red and White from State,
and we know we are the best,
with one hand behind our backs,
we can take on all the rest.
Come over the hill, Caroline,
Devils, Deeks, stand in line,
we're the red and white of N.C. State.
Go State!!!!

 

[RoyJackson]

Wood is used structurally for buildings.

There were (and are) many small aircraft that have used wood for the wing spars or for other substantial structure. Similarly, there are many wooden hulled boats.


Repair methods (for aircraft) are covered in AC43.13, as well as various other books. For design, the best resource is an old copy of Bruhn's Aircraft structures (I have one from 1949) that has mechanical properties for wood (strengths, stiffnesses, etc.)

If you engineer it properly, use good aircraft/marine glues for glued joints or laminations so that moisture will not be an issue, there is no reason why it can't be done.

I don't think it's worth the effort, but to each their own poison.

There have been a lot of aircraft made of wood/fabric that lasted decades...I reckon there's a good percentage still flying.

As an aside, when I went to "A" School for aircraft structural repair (Navy), part of that course was wood and fabric repair and doping. This was in 1970. The Navy didn't have any active aircraft using wood/fabric for the fuselage or wings, but there were still some birds using wood/fabric flight controls.

 

[Soundguy]

you aren't thinking outside the box...

I never said to intentionally drive a vehicle into a furnace or intentionally scrape something with an abrasive.

both of those are incidents that can occur without warning or you knowing it. IE.. fire under the hood, or fire in a fender bender.. .. or slow incedental wear that becomes bigger and bigger.

as for my glue and dowel argument.. that was just a basic concept. same could be said about your cast welding comment. if you really think cast can't be weld repaired.. then you simply havn't seen a real welder work on it.

lets move up into sdafety and energy absorption and things like crush zones and K frames, and folding vs splintering.

wood splinters and cracks along the grain... hard to predict precisely where each individual timber is going to fail in a mass production scenerio.. on the other hand.. folded metal built in such a way as to say.. drop an engine block down and away from the passanger compartment so it doesn't set in your lap, plus energy absorving folding and istorting of the frame , that is mass production duplicatable just simply isn't something you can 'assembly line' into an auto.

I'll say it again. if it was a superior material for all things auto.. that's what would be being used to make them right now, enmasse.. .. and.. well.. it aint.

composite is out of the scope of the wood vs metal conversation...

At this point I'll agree to disagree that wood is a superior material for modern auto construction. There are too many tractor threads out there I intend to read today without backing up my OPINION, which won't change, on this subject. so for this thread, I'm bowing out with that consideration.

to any auto manufacturers out there listening. make a wood vehicle ... go for it.. hopefully it will be a gm.. as I won't be buying a wood car/truck.. OR a gm car/truck again.. so that solves 2 birds with 1 stone

soundguy

If your experiance is limited to wood glue and dowels, then you really don't have much to say about the real possiblities of using alternative materials. Using wood glue and dowels on a wooden frame member would be like trying to solder your axel back together. You can't simply weld all types of metal back together again either. Welding of cast metal parts isn't recommended, so usualy you recycle the old part and buy a new one. In addition, common welding as we know it now has serious effects on the temper of the parts being joined. Repared metal isn't an ideal material either. If it were, you wouldn't need car fax.

Wood can be bonded very strongly. I don't know about any one else, but I don't plan on driving my car, truck, or tractor nto a furnace, or intentionally scraping the frame with abrasives. Incredable things can be acomplished using the apropriate wood in places you wouldn't normally think of. There are woods that are extremely abrasion resistant. Old timers made equipment much stronger than most things you can get your hands on now using wood. Of course they weren't dumb enough to not use other materials where apropriate. They also were able to understand and use wood for the purposes you are saying are not ideal, and got better results than using metal alone. Just read about the planes earlier in this thread. Why are some of the best luxury cars built with wood frame members? Did you ever think that some composite materials use wood as a base material?

 

[EE_Bota]

As many have already heard the semi-structural body panels of our Kestrel car are made from bio-composite panels which at this time is derived from industrial hemp. When we officially unveiled the design of this vehicle and its construction techniques, we received a lot of inquiries from media and press officials who were particularly interested in the use of industrial hemp as a body material. Of course with that came the obvious hemp related jokes. The truth is there are many benefits achieved through the use of this material and unlike marijuana it cannot get you high.
One of the benefits of using bio-composites is that it is a less energy intensive manufacturing process. Hemp is a high yielding plant that can be grown with little water and pesticide. Much of the energy required to make the raw material for bio composite mats is done by nature from the sun, whereas the process for making fibreglass into the raw material to make the same mats is a very energy intensive process. The process to make the hemp plant into a form usable in car body panels is similar to that of making paper. The hemp is chopped up, decertified, clean and combed and then pressed into a mat. The mats are then used as part of the body panel as opposed to a synthetic fibre like fibreglass.
Another benefit of utilising hemp is its relative light weight. It is tougher and more durable than steel and lighter than some other composite alternatives. Light weight is key in today痴 auto industry as it helps increase fuel economy. This is also a key factor for electric vehicles, looking to increase their range. The heavier the vehicle the less distance it can travel on one charge, as the batteries themselves add considerable weight it is therefore extremely important for electric vehicles to find other areas in which to decrease weight.
The idea of using hemp in vehicles is not a new one and not one unique to Motive. Henry Ford made a plastic vehicle in 1941 utilising hemp and wheat straw fibres, below is a short clip of the vehicle driving around and Henry demonstrating some of the benefits by hitting it with a sledge hammer. Many automakers today are also exploring the use of bio materials in other vehicle applications, like seat foam.


Maybe it'll be back to the future??:thumbsup:

I sure hope so, Egon. I have be watching and hoping for years. If I were wealthy enough not to have to work daily for wages, I would be all over it like white on rice. The energy of the hemp plant is amazing, and it is the most/fastest biomatter that can be grown per acre. The seeds can make a 51% protein cake, full of omega-3, and all this without having to be cooked to critical levels to kill trysin inhibitors (soy).

Hemp is superior to cotton, and should be used to replace cotton in this country entirely. I advocate only competition, not legislation. Cotton takes huge quantities of pesticides and probably some herbicides too, whereas hemp will fill a field so completely, it is useful as a herbicide in its own right. Little or no pesticides will be needed either. Hemp seed oil can be burned for energy (Lincoln used it), and that does not even harm the protein, which remains available after the pressing.

Hemp is mankind's oldest and potentially best friend. For years in the US, the federal government did everything they could legally do to encourage it's growth. Now, even though the courts have repeatedly determined that the DEA has NO say in the matter of industrial hemp, due to its similarity in appearance, the DEA always hassles people who try to grow it. This should be ended once and for all, and if growing marijuana has to be legalized to get the gov. off the hemp growers back, I am in favor of legalization.

 

[RoyJackson]

For years in the US, the federal government did everything they could legally do to encourage it's growth. Now, even though the courts have repeatedly determined that the DEA has NO say in the matter of industrial hemp, due to its similarity in appearance, the DEA always hassles people who try to grow it. This should be ended once and for all, and if growing marijuana has to be legalized to get the gov. off the hemp growers back, I am in favor of legalization.

Agree 100%

 

[Egon]

Opp's; my post is leading away from the OP post. My apologies.

What the intent was to bring attention to organic fibres being used in place of metal. Henry Ford's use was intended to get some attention.

I'm pretty sure that heat moulded organic fibre along with the proper resins and additions like carbon fibre would be quite suitable for use in manufacturing a vehicle.

As for strength surely at least one mosquito had a rough landing and survived.

It would be interesting to see a breakdown of costs between the organic and steel and a comparison of environmental impact

 

[RoyJackson]

Opp's; my post is leading away from the OP post. My apologies.

I can't believe that!!! Never happened on TBN before!

What the intent was to bring attention to organic fibres being used in place of metal. Henry Ford's use was intended to get some attention.

I'm pretty sure that heat moulded organic fibre along with the proper resins and additions like carbon fibre would be quite suitable for use in manufacturing a vehicle.

As for strength surely at least one mosquito had a rough landing and survived.

It would be interesting to see a breakdown of costs between the organic and steel

Laminated wood (marine plywood, for example) can take a pretty good pounding.
For a tractor, where "pretty" (as in eye appeal) isn't a priority, wood might be a good material.
Other vehicles, a car for example, wood might make good structural components (you'd mentioned Morgan in an earlier post) but forming laminated wood for fenders, hoods, and other body panels may be too costly.
Now, Morgan may still be forming their fenders on an English wheel..but those are not mass produced or cheap to purchase.

 

[EE_Bota]

Opp's; my post is leading away from the OP post. My apologies.

What the intent was to bring attention to organic fibres being used in place of metal. Henry Ford's use was intended to get some attention.

I'm pretty sure that heat moulded organic fibre along with the proper resins and additions like carbon fibre would be quite suitable for use in manufacturing a vehicle.

As for strength surely at least one mosquito had a rough landing and survived.

It would be interesting to see a breakdown of costs between the organic and steel and a comparison of environmental impact

Nah...I took us off course, since you were tying in actual autos build out of organic material, and, having read the things you mentioned before, and studied them off and on for a long time, I got "enthusiastic."

Back to the topic:
A conestoga wagon is a tough old beast, so lets see what its construction looked like:

Conestoga wagon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Most times, I believe, the iron in the wheel was only a thin band between the wood and the ground, but the central hoop that runs on the axle also had some banding, I believe. I presume there was probably a metal axle, but perhaps some of you can correct me. That wheel takes some pretty serious impacts and stresses during its life. (I have a 92 year old uncle who used to make conestoga wagons, only small, like a child's wagon, but a little bigger. He just wanted one for himself, but he never could keep one. As soon as he would put it in the yard, people would stop and offer him $600-$1000 dollars for it, so he would sell and make another.)