Re-fills: Is there an easier way than two 5-gal diesel jugs??

[SteveInMD]

Try ASTM F976-08 and F852-08. California EPA also lists the colors as Red, Yellow, and Blue.

You've mentioned a few ASTM standards, however standards are not the same as regulations. There would need to be a rule somewhere saying when and who needed to comply with the standard.

Where does California list these colors?

FTG-05

I don't see what where the confusion is.

That was quite obvious.

ASTM applies to manufacturers, not users, of portable fuel cans. Hence, someone who makes a fuel can to ASTM specs has to meet the color (and other) requirements for a portable fuel can.

Wrong. If you want to make your own fuel container you have to comply with ASTM per the DOT. Then you will have to submit the container and specifications to your state approving agency for certification and if you meet the DOT, EPA, etc., requirements you can use it.

Also for me if I use the 55 gallon drum for my tractors fuel I do so at my own risk as my state laws do not allow it no matter what color or material. Other users should check there local and state laws concerning fuel storage on there properties.

Users can use whatever they want or can get (like military fuel cans).

This just isn't worth answering. Don't forget to save your used milk jugs.

The question, from one poster here, was where are the requirements that state that he, as a user, has to use a specific color fuel can for a specific fuel.

DOT requires portable fuel containers to comply with ASTM standards period. That means, red, yellow, blue.

Absent state regulations, there are no national requirements, USDOT doesn't have them - that I've found, if you have, post the USDOT regulation - and ASTM doesn't apply - for users.

First and for the last time, ASTM applies if you are going to make or use your own fuel container and for manufacturers of resale containers.

Every state has regulations governing the use of approved containers and I suggest that you call yours or look it up. The states regulations all/most come from the the federal regulations.

49 CFR is one of your national governing requirement on fuel containers by the DOT. Also do not forget the EPA has requirements as well and so does OSHA in their 1910 and 1926 series publications. For the purpose of this thread the PFC's under 5 gallons are not governed by OSHA but by DOT but the storage containers that are larger can be cover under many agencies, DOT, OSHA, EPA, and your state.


Now clear?

It has been crystal for me, but I hope it is for you now.

You've mentioned a few ASTM standards. Standards don't equal regulations.

OSHA rule apply to the work place, not the home. 49 CFR covers all transportation including pipelines and railroads. Exactly which part would apply in this case? I still haven't seen a specific reference (a CFR reference would look something like...49 CFR 101.134(c)).

I can't say absolutely that no rules exist, but we can't have a meaningful debate unless someone can produce an actual rule.

 

[rd_macgregor]

I'm not keen on the 5-gal containers, either, especially since the fuel filler on my DK45 is right in the middle of the hood.
I'm thinking of converting my home heating system to geothermal electric heat pump. If I do this, I will have a surplus heating fuel oil tank (300+gal).
Would it work to set this up as a fueling station for my tractor?
I'm not a farmer, so my CUT use would likely take a couple of years to consume as much as would fit in that oil tank. Would I likely run into condensation problems? Or, maybe, fuel degradation issues?
Thanks,
BOB

 

[LBrown59]

I'm not keen on the 5-gal containers, either, especially since the fuel filler on my DK45 is right in the middle of the hood.
I'm thinking of converting my home heating system to geothermal electric heat pump. If I do this, I will have a surplus heating fuel oil tank (300+gal).
1*Would it work to set this up as a fueling station for my tractor?
I'm not a farmer, so my CUT use would likely take a couple of years to consume as much as would fit in that oil tank.
2*Would I likely run into condensation problems? Or, maybe, fuel degradation issues?
Thanks,
BOB

1*Why aren't you already using the tank and the fuel in it for your tractor??
2*Why would you have these issues with any thing you used the fuel for ???:confused2:

 

[jcummins]

I have a diesel truck with an aux tank. One of those small drill type rotary pumps, hoses each end, and I fill my ZD326 that way. NO more diesel cans. IF...I ever have the money I may very well trade my Teryx for a diesel UTV...just to put an end to the gas cans too. It is insanity what this do gooder government does to us.

 

[rd_macgregor]

1*Why aren't you already using the tank and the fuel in it for your tractor??
2*Why would you have these issues with any thing you used the fuel for ???:confused2:

Right now the tank is in the basement and it is really hard to extract fuel into another container to lug up to the tractor.

Does diesel fuel (or HHO) deteriorate if it is stored for prolonged periods (ie, a couple of years)? Also, I had understood that normal expansion/contraction with temperature changes could slowly condense water in the fuel tank. Normally this isn't an issue, but it might be with a large tank that is, say, only 20% full for a long time. In fact, I think condensation is the biggest reason that these steel tanks eventually rust out, even when they are kept under shelter (or in a basement, like mine is).

BOB

 

[NH33]

Right now the tank is in the basement and it is really hard to extract fuel into another container to lug up to the tractor.

Does diesel fuel (or HHO) deteriorate if it is stored for prolonged periods (ie, a couple of years)? Also, I had understood that normal expansion/contraction with temperature changes could slowly condense water in the fuel tank. Normally this isn't an issue, but it might be with a large tank that is, say, only 20% full for a long time. In fact, I think condensation is the biggest reason that these steel tanks eventually rust out, even when they are kept under shelter (or in a basement, like mine is).

BOB

An outdoor tank is subject to much more severe temperature changes than an indoor tank. I wouldn't think condensation would be a factor for an indoor tank. As long as you filter the fuel I think it should be just fine.

I considered putting a Fill Rite pump on the side of my house plumbed into the heating oil tank. This seems like a good option, but I ended up buying another tank for other reasons.

 

[LBrown59]

1* it is really hard to extract fuel into another container to lug up to the tractor.

Does diesel fuel (or HHO) deteriorate if it is stored for prolonged periods (ie, a couple of years)? Also, I had understood that normal expansion/contraction with temperature changes could slowly condense water in the fuel tank.
2*Normally this isn't an issue, but it might be with a large tank that is, say, only 20% full for a long time. In fact, I think condensation is the biggest reason that these steel tanks eventually rust out, even when they are kept under shelter (or in a basement, like mine is).

BOB

1*Is there any reason why you can't hook up an electric 12 volt pump to the tank ?
2*You would need a water blocker filter in case of condensation.

Another thing you could do is build one of these using 1 or 2 plastic drums in the 15 30 or 55 gallon size .

 

[LBrown59]

An outdoor tank is subject to much more severe temperature changes than an indoor tank. I wouldn't think condensation would be a factor for an indoor tank.
10*As long as you filter the fuel I think it should be just fine.
12*I considered putting a Fill Rite pump on the side of my house plumbed into the heating oil tank

10*That's sorta what I told him.

12*Every body that heats their house with this and owns a tractor should have a pump plumbed into their heating oil tank.~ ~ ~ ~ No sense going to the gas station and paying more for the same thing while getting charged for taxes you don't owe.

 

[PCABE5]

You've mentioned a few ASTM standards, however standards are not the same as regulations. There would need to be a rule somewhere saying when and who needed to comply with the standard.

Where does California list these colors?

You've mentioned a few ASTM standards. Standards don't equal regulations.

OSHA rule apply to the work place, not the home. 49 CFR covers all transportation including pipelines and railroads. Exactly which part would apply in this case? I still haven't seen a specific reference (a CFR reference would look something like...49 CFR 101.134(c)).

I can't say absolutely that no rules exist, but we can't have a meaningful debate unless someone can produce an actual rule.

California Air Resources Board - CP 501.

In today's government standards and regulations blurr. The federal government stopped some years ago writting/renewing regulations that are now covered by industry. I enforce ASTM, ASME, ISO, OSHA, etc. on manufacturers everyday. They either comply or they don't sell. The government does have rules on the use of commercial standards. For example, procurements are not to write regulations for items that are governed by commercial industry standards. The only exception is if the standard does not fully address the requirements and even then those are usually just written as an addendum and not a regulation.

The other thing is we all need to realize is where the industry standards came from. Thats right, the federal government. Mil-I and Mil-Q were the basis for ISO 9000. Another example, ASME, ANSI, SAE and ASTM have taken over most of the governments standards and made them theirs. Why, cost savings, as the government doesn't have to pay to store, write, or update any of these anymore.

Also my reference to OSHA was to show that in work areas they use DOT standards for containers 5 gallons or less. New cans also must comply with the Consumer Product Safety Commission, i.e. child proof containers and the EPA is regulating the emmissions from these cans that is why the new ones have no vent and seal shut.

SteveInMd send my a pm.

 

[PCABE5]

Here is an interesting tidbit, I looked up the current military spec for jerry cans and the construction of these cans uses ASTM F852.

 

[SteveInMD]

Yes, standards are referenced in regulations - no argument there. The key is that these regulations apply to people that manufacture containers. We have yet to see any rule that says a consumer must use the containers and must not use any other container.

 

[lostcause]

It's ironic the new cans are suppose to be better for the environment, but more fuel is spilled (which creates a fire hazard among other things). The design reminds me of something that was made based upon recommendations from a lawyer, environmentalist and the EPA. Designed to look good on paper, but never actually tested.

maybe i have a different style of "new" can? i got tired of trying to decide what fuel i had in what red can, so a few years back i bought yellow diesel cans. they have no vent hole to leak, and have the spout that has to be pushed down to release fuel.

i've posted here previously, and i understand that people are looking to find a solution so they don't have to lift a 5 gallon can, but what boggles my mind is the problems people are having with the newer cans. most tractors i've seen have fuel fills that are accessed from the top - be it hood or fender. these new can spouts work great with that style of filler. i will say that trying to fuel a car or truck with a side of the fender fill pipe can be miserable.

i can take my diesel can and tip it totally upside down and i don't spill a drop of fuel. while upside down i hold it over the fill pipe on the tractor and lower it. it starts filling the tank, and if the tank becomes full before the can is empty, it stops filling. when i take the can away the nozzle springs back to the closed position - no spills. also, since the filling is pure gravity, i don't have to hold the weight of the can. i just have to hold it steady from side to side. basically, once the can is over the fuel filler, i can leave one hand up there to steady it, and leave the other hand free for scratching myself, holding a drink, or whatever. with the old style cans i had to hold and tip it into the filler pipe, but not now.

 

[dlmpsy]

I'm 6'0", I can't reach the fuel opening from the ground, so I have to climb up on the tractor. Once there I either have to reach across the steering wheel as far as I can with a steering wheel in my gut, or stand on the rounded support for the FEL subframe on the left side, with my right foot on the floorpan. Again, reaching quite a bit, but without a steering wheel poking me. While doing this, with the yellow tanks I have, I have to stretch-out as far as I can with a five gallon tank in my hands, then depress (and hold) the fuel lever while balancing/holding the tank with my other hand. It's a little bit awkard, and when it's wet or slick not the safest of things to do. However, I imagine it's kinda funny looking to any passerbys.:laughing:

 

[PCABE5]

i can take my diesel can and tip it totally upside down and i don't spill a drop of fuel. while upside down i hold it over the fill pipe on the tractor and lower it. it starts filling the tank, and if the tank becomes full before the can is empty, it stops filling. when i take the can away the nozzle springs back to the closed position - no spills. also, since the filling is pure gravity, i don't have to hold the weight of the can. i just have to hold it steady from side to side. basically, once the can is over the fuel filler, i can leave one hand up there to steady it, and leave the other hand free for scratching myself, holding a drink, or whatever. with the old style cans i had to hold and tip it into the filler pipe, but not now.

The one new style can that I have doesn't leak either. Not sure which you have but I bought the Blitz brand and I am ok with it, slow but it works.

 

[PCABE5]

Yes, standards are referenced in regulations - no argument there. The key is that these regulations apply to people that manufacture containers. We have yet to see any rule that says a consumer must use the containers and must not use any other container.

My thought to your question Steve might be state and local laws that prohibit non-approved containers. I know of one city (Marshfield) in my state that governs the amount of fuel that you can have in your house, attached garage or detatched garage by municipal code. That city also states, "approved containers and no milk jugs". Most states that have adopted NFPA 30, I do not know of a state that hasn't, then these same requirements will exist for everyone. Inside NFPA 30 they also have a container section.

My state only has regulations on the containers, WI Admin Code 10.28, WI Admin Code 48.10, and WI Statute 168.11. My states code prohibits the use of non-approved containers and states the containers that are approved must be UL classified or listed. The last part denotes the color.

In order for a manufacturer to be UL classified or listed for Wisconsin they must meet the UL guide on consumer-use fuel cans which states:

Gasoline (red) Investigated to ASTM F852, "Standard Specification for Portable Gasoline Containers for Consumer Use," and intended for flammable spark-ignition automotive fuels such as gasoline and low-blend ethanol (max E10), compliant with ASTM D4814, "Standard Specification for Automotive Spark-Ignition Engine Fuel," and gas/oil mixtures for two-cycle engines. Dual-compartment cans are intended for separate storage of gas and oil.

Diesel (yellow) Investigated to ASTM F976, "Standard Specification for Portable Kerosene and Diesel Containers for Consumer Use," and intended for combustible compression-ignition automotive fuels such as diesel and low-blend biodiesel (max B5), compliant with ASTM D975, "Standard Specification for Diesel Fuel Oils."

Kerosene (blue) Investigated to ASTM F976 and intended for combustible heating-appliance fuels such as K1 or K2, compliant with ASTM D3699, "Standard Specification for Kerosene."

According to David at Wisconsin's Bureau of Petroleum Services, "service stations are not allowed to sell fuel to anyone putting fuel in non-approved containers. Many do but if they are caught by federal or state inspectors they can be shut-down and/or fined."

I was looking through the federal register, Federal Register /Vol. 72, No. 37, on the EPA changes for these consumer fuel cans and they mention that the colors are red, yellow, and blue.

According to Neil at the DOT (Federal) a "DOT approved can" must meet all 49 CFR requirements and be certified by a national testing laboratory. He said that as far as color and a few other requirements on 5 gallon and less personal use containers the DOT regulates these through the national lab certifications. He said to be DOT approved you must have a national laboratory certification, but to get a lab to certify you must have an industry certification ANSI/ASME first.

 

[SteveInMD]

My thought to your question Steve might be state and local laws that prohibit non-approved containers. I know of one city (Marshfield) in my state that governs the amount of fuel that you can have in your house, attached garage or detatched garage by municipal code. That city also states, "approved containers and no milk jugs". Most states that have adopted NFPA 30, I do not know of a state that hasn't, then these same requirements will exist for everyone. Inside NFPA 30 they also have a container section.

My state only has regulations on the containers, WI Admin Code 10.28, WI Admin Code 48.10, and WI Statute 168.11. My states code prohibits the use of non-approved containers and states the containers that are approved must be UL classified or listed. The last part denotes the color.

In order for a manufacturer to be UL classified or listed for Wisconsin they must meet the UL guide on consumer-use fuel cans which states:

Gasoline (red) Investigated to ASTM F852, "Standard Specification for Portable Gasoline Containers for Consumer Use," and intended for flammable spark-ignition automotive fuels such as gasoline and low-blend ethanol (max E10), compliant with ASTM D4814, "Standard Specification for Automotive Spark-Ignition Engine Fuel," and gas/oil mixtures for two-cycle engines. Dual-compartment cans are intended for separate storage of gas and oil.

Diesel (yellow) Investigated to ASTM F976, "Standard Specification for Portable Kerosene and Diesel Containers for Consumer Use," and intended for combustible compression-ignition automotive fuels such as diesel and low-blend biodiesel (max B5), compliant with ASTM D975, "Standard Specification for Diesel Fuel Oils."

Kerosene (blue) Investigated to ASTM F976 and intended for combustible heating-appliance fuels such as K1 or K2, compliant with ASTM D3699, "Standard Specification for Kerosene."

According to David at Wisconsin's Bureau of Petroleum Services, "service stations are not allowed to sell fuel to anyone putting fuel in non-approved containers. Many do but if they are caught by federal or state inspectors they can be shut-down and/or fined."

I was looking through the federal register, Federal Register /Vol. 72, No. 37, on the EPA changes for these consumer fuel cans and they mention that the colors are red, yellow, and blue.

According to Neil at the DOT (Federal) a "DOT approved can" must meet all 49 CFR requirements and be certified by a national testing laboratory. He said that as far as color and a few other requirements on 5 gallon and less personal use containers the DOT regulates these through the national lab certifications. He said to be DOT approved you must have a national laboratory certification, but to get a lab to certify you must have an industry certification ANSI/ASME first.

Now we're getting somewhere! I'd still like to see an actual specific rule cited by David or Neil. Here's a quote that says DOT rules don't apply...

"The Hazardous Material Transportation Act (HMTA) and its associated Hazardous Material Regulations (HMR) apply only to hazardous materials transportation in commerce. Transportation in 田ommerce is any transportation that is or affects interstate or intrastate trade or traffic (in goods and/or services) in furtherance of a commercial enterprise or business."

This comes from a FAQ on hazardous materials transportation.

 

[PCABE5]

Now we're getting somewhere! I'd still like to see an actual specific rule cited by David or Neil. Here's a quote that says DOT rules don't apply...

"The Hazardous Material Transportation Act (HMTA) and its associated Hazardous Material Regulations (HMR) apply only to hazardous materials transportation in commerce. Transportation in ç”°ommerce is any transportation that is or affects interstate or intrastate trade or traffic (in goods and/or services) in furtherance of a commercial enterprise or business."

This comes from a FAQ on hazardous materials transportation.

Steve, Neil gave 49CFR178.601 thru 608 as the testing that they need to meet. I looked at the ASME standard and their testing incorporates the parts I scanned (I did not verify everyone of the tests). He did rattle off other 49 CFR sections and looks like they are scattered but look in 178.255, 178.273-277, 172.407, 178.506, 178.509. I probably missed more than he rattled off.

David is in the State of Wisconsin, Bureau of Petroleum Products, and he gave me the WI statutes that I list before, WI Admin Code 10.28, WI Admin Code 48.10, and WI Statute 168.11. These and a few others regulate for WI what can be used.

This is what I found on HMTA you stated, - The Hazardous Materials Transportation Uniform Safety Act (HMTUSA) regulates the transport of any hazardous items or materials throughout the United States or internationally. The Secretary of Transportation regulates which materials are considered dangerous, according to the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA). This was written in 1990 to update the 1975 HMTA.

The State of Maryland in Title 26.11.13, Except as provided in B of this regulation, a portable fuel container, spout, or portable fuel container and spout produced on or after July 1, 2007, that is manufactured for sale, advertised for sale, sold, or offered for sale in Maryland or that is introduced, delivered, or imported into Maryland for commerce and that is subject to any of the standards specified in this regulation and documents incorporated by reference, shall be certified for use and sale by the manufacturer through CARB and covered by a CARB Executive Order. Reading the wording in your states law you will see reference to "a person may not manufacture, sell, or make available for use" in a couple different places. So does that mean you cannot take your milk jug to the gas station (made available for use). CP501 is the CARB rule which is available thru the California ARB if you haven't looked at it yet.

I also sent a email to the Portable Fuel Container Manufacturers Association and asked what they use as their governing rule on container color. I received a response from Grant and he said, "The ASTM standards require that each type of fuel container be colored according to its intended contents: Red for Gasoline, Yellow for Diesel, Blue for Kerosene." I keyed in on the word required.

 

[HiTechTed]

I'm 6'0", I can't reach the fuel opening from the ground, so I have to climb up on the tractor. Once there I either have to reach across the steering wheel as far as I can with a steering wheel in my gut, or stand on the rounded support for the FEL subframe on the left side, with my right foot on the floorpan. Again, reaching quite a bit, but without a steering wheel poking me. While doing this, with the yellow tanks I have, I have to stretch-out as far as I can with a five gallon tank in my hands, then depress (and hold) the fuel lever while balancing/holding the tank with my other hand. It's a little bit awkard, and when it's wet or slick not the safest of things to do. However, I imagine it's kinda funny looking to any passerbys.:laughing:

That is pretty much how I have to do it! I don't understand how in the world anybody could like these newer Blitz cans. I can't say it any other way...they totally suck. And both of mine now leak from around the "safety trigger" or whatever that's called.

I have nothing against improvements in life, and I honestly don't have anything against regulations that support improving environmental issues. With that said, these cans don't do either. I'm not a genius but I think the reason for not including the vents on these newer cans is to keep vapors from escaping out into the atmosphere...but the funny part is, if you leave these cans anywhere that the temperature is fairly warm, they will fill with vapors to the point where the sides of the can look like they are going to burst. Then when you undo the little yellow cap on the end of the spout, the vapors freaking gush out ANYWAY!

Blitz fuel cans are an epic failure.

 

[lostcause]

That is pretty much how I have to do it! I don't understand how in the world anybody could like these newer Blitz cans. I can't say it any other way...they totally suck. And both of mine now leak from around the "safety trigger" or whatever that's called.

i know there are tons of different styles of these new "anti-spill" cans. a friend has a small one with a thumb trigger and it works great for chain saw filling, though i can't say i would like it for filling the tractor. i posted this one several pages back, but this is mine:

5-gal. Plastic Diesel Fuel Can, Fuel Cans - GEMPLER'S

gravity does all the work once you lift it up the first time. looking at the picture, the nozzle on mine seems to have a larger lip on it to catch on the tractor's fuel neck, but otherwise it's the same. if you are ok to get past the initial 40lb lift, then the rest is easy. just a little light lateral support and it will fill till either the can is empty or the tractor is full.

 

[aczlan]

gravity does all the work once you lift it up the first time. looking at the picture, the nozzle on mine seems to have a larger lip on it to catch on the tractor's fuel neck, but otherwise it's the same. if you are ok to get past the initial 40lb lift, then the rest is easy. just a little light lateral support and it will fill till either the can is empty or the tractor is full.

Give it a year or two and it will start leaking around the sliding piece, then the sliding piece will stop sliding. We had a pair of Blitz cans that went through that process. They now have bootleg spouts from Canada installed and all is well (like this)

Aaron Z