The world according to Monsanto II

   / The world according to Monsanto II #101  
Oops, I forgot to mention labelling, which several posters have brought up.

One of the demands frequently made by opponents of GMOs is that products containing them be labeled. The two main justifications usually given for this demand are consumer choice and epidemiology. In the first case, how can an opponent of GM foods avoid them if they don稚 know where they are? In the second case, if there are adverse effects, how will we ever know, if we can稚 differentiate between people who consume GM foods and those who don稚?

Consumer Choice: The usual call for labeling is a simple 田ontains GMO type of notice. While this would allow those who oppose the technology on principle to avoid most of its products (without resorting to buying Certified Organic products), it would fall short of providing any useful health or nutrition information. The position of the Canadian and US governments on this has been that the label requirements will be for pertinent health and safety information. This includes the ingredients, nutritional content/breakdown and safety/health warnings (eg �ay contain nuts?. Because there has never been any evidence of adverse effects from any of the GM crops so far introduced, nor have they (so far) exhibited appreciably different nutritional profiles from their conventional counterparts, no specific mention of these has been required on the label.
Industry is strongly opposed to the ç”°ontains GMO label because they see it as equivalent to a skull and cross-bones. The danger is not so much that consumers would reject the products葉hough that might happen, tooå‚*ut that food processors would move to exclude GM products from their lines in order to avoid having to label them. This is what happened in Europe when a labeling regime was introduced. Even though polls showed that at least two-thirds of consumers would still have continued buying the processed products if they had GM contents, the suppliers of these products realized that none of the customers would refuse to buy the products if the GM elements were eliminated. So there was a lot to gain and nothing to lose for the processors and grocers. The end result is that European consumers now have great difficulty choosing foods with labeled GM content.
It should be noted that the Europeans exempted certain types of products from the labeling requirement. Mostly, these include cheeses produced with chymosin and other food industry products which use GM enzymes or �rocessing aids or GM yeast (bread, beer, wine). Also, there is the problem of detecting GM content in products where the product has been highly refined (oil, starch, sugar). Finally, in any labeling scheme, a threshold must be set. In the EU, the labeling threshold for aggregate GM content is 0.9%-- that is, if the sum of all components of the product which have at least some GM content adds up to more than 0.9% of the total weight of the product, the product must be labeled as GM.
As more specific traits of obvious benefit to consumers are introduced like some of the new GM soy and canola varieties with healthier oil profiles�ndustry reluctance to label the crop as GM may diminish. The voluntary standard in Canada allows the product to be labeled GM if the producer wishes, just as voluntary GM-free label is allowed. Just as Certified Organic producers willingly accept the greater cost of producing their product to service a specific market, the producers of specialty GM products will have to bear the additional cost of identity preservation for their products--- they won稚 be able to benefit from the scale economies of the mass-commodity handling system.

Epidemiology: It is true that an epidemiologist would need to be able to identify treated and control groups to be able to identify any health effects of GM foods. However, a simple ç”°ontains GMO label would only be effective if the whole collection of genetic engineering technologies and traits were harmful. Critics of the technology often point to the possibility that it might introduce unknown allergens or other unexpected effects. However, each transformation event is individual and unique, so, unless each trait were identified on the label, tracking any effects would be confounded.
Furthermore, critics of GM labeling point out that any new trait in a crop, including those introduced by conventional breeding techniques, might conceivably result in adverse effects (as has happened several times in the past, eg with potatoes and celery). In order to be able to detect the more subtle of these effects by epidemiological studies, are we going to identify each component of foods by crop variety on the label? Clearly, this isn稚 feasible.
Finally, the actions in Europe to restrict the availability of GM foods may have provided a crude control group for epidemiological comparison. That is, in Europe the general population has consumed very little GM food whereas in North America, between two-thirds and three-quarters of all processed foods in grocery stores contain at least one GM ingredient. Still, if there are generic adverse effects of GM foods, none have been serious enough to be discernable by this crude comparison.

Finally, note that fewer than five percent of respondents in surveys spontaneously mention GM content as something they would like to see added to food labels. Conversely, a fairly high percentage of respondents (especially in Europe) say "yes" if asked if they would like to have GM foods labelled. Consider this: consumers can't see any harm in having more information made available to them, not realizing that picking and choosing what goes onto labels may be reflecting a preconceived notion...in this case, that there is a greater reason to be concerned about the process of genetic modification than about, say, what variety of bean is in the canned beans or what regimen of pesticides was applied to the beans, etc.

Sorry for the long-windedness; I hope this helps put the labelling issue in better perspective.
 
   / The world according to Monsanto II #102  
College kid? You're kidding right? I'm 64 years old Sparky..... I have degrees from 4 Universities, working on a 5th. In the last 40 years, there's only been a couple short spans of less than 2 years each where I wasn't enrolled in some sort of degree program.

So we're supposed to just believe you have 4+ degrees? Where's the proof? How do we know you're 64? You post like a 19 year old that passed a couple college science classes & now thinks he knows everything. And that just because you did a little science experiment, & what you thought would happen appears to have actually happened, you're now an expert ... I'm sorry, THE expert.

In any case, assuming it's true, all those degrees make it sound a lot more like you're a professional student, aka a theorist, then a professional anything else. Nonetheless, a 64 year old farmer with 5 degrees & the inability to post calm, mature, rational responses to posts online he deems inaccurate - I bow to you. You are The Master.

Nature "modifies" itself every second of every day.

That's right, nature modifies itself ... It's humans modifying nature that concerns me.

What scientist are doing is to target "modifications" in a controlled manner rather than the willy nilly random adaptations so as to sustain life on this planet. Without the work done to "modify nature" as you put it, we would still be at the same production rates as we were in the 1800's. Food would have ran out for most of the worlds populous decades ago.

I'm not so sure that would've been a bad thing. You're implying that over-populating the world, & continuing to do so at better & better rates, is a good thing. Where does it stop?

Whether you like it or not, whether you UNDERSTAND it or not, the newest technology is FAR SAFER than allowing the vast majority of the world to starve to death.

Safer for who? I think I'd be a lot safer with say 6 million people on earth rather than 6 billion, or whatever the figure is.

Cross breeding of crops has been around since the beginning of agriculture. The SCIENCE of cross breeding plants was begun in earnest about 65 years ago. What we are experiencing NOW is that same science taken to a whole new level. In spite of what some may think, we cannot turn back time and return to the stone age.

Again ... even if you are dead right about all this, why do you have to come across as such a d!ck about it? In my experience most educated professionals that are actually correct do not have to be A-holes to convey their correctness. Actually, I do know one professional engineer who is like that: Everybody thinks he's an A-hole, but he is completely clueless to it. You can no longer claim to have not been told.

I was trying to think of similar examples that show that even though you believe 65 years of doing something sets it in stone that it's right, does not necessarily mean it's so. Communism might work: For many, many years many people thought communism was a good idea. Some still do. I think the masses now know better. Flat Earth might work; How long did many people believe the earth was flat. I imagine plenty of smart-for-their-time scientists did their studies, calculations & experiments & were able to prove without a serious doubt by most that the earth is flat, & it wasn't until many, many years later that Flat Earth was proven wrong.
 
   / The world according to Monsanto II #103  
It's funny that my 64 years have proven to me that things aren't always as they appear, even in what we might think of as controlled experiments/environments, much less the world at large. We are now at the point, as an anthropology professor friend has said, mankind could be the greatest natural catastrophe the world has seen.

We can do many tricks. Some of the tricks work, even when the underlying science is incomplete or even wrong. The level of complexity in the trickery today is extraordinary. While many of us prefer to err on the side of caution, believing that first, we should do no harm, others, as if drunk with their book-learning (not to mention, possible personal gain), seem willing to risk anything, including what is ethically not theirs to risk. Screw the potentialities, full speed ahead.

What could possibly go wrong?
 
   / The world according to Monsanto II #104  
College kid? You're kidding right? I'm 64 years old Sparky..... I have degrees from 4 Universities, working on a 5th. In the last 40 years, there's only been a couple short spans of less than 2 years each where I wasn't enrolled in some sort of degree program. I have farmed most of my life, and have actual hands on experience with regards to GMO crops, and LEGITIMATE lab studies on such.

I have no problem with this thread surviving...I DO have a problem with people posting lies, deception, erroneous information, rumors, innuendo, and simple "bad science" to promote a personal agenda. If you cannot use REAL FACTS to base one's opinion on, EXPECT me to point out the shear lunacy of the contrived nonsense.

What you perceive as "Smart-***" is simply someone with actual knowledge of the subject pointing out the foolishness of those who do not have a clue what they're talking about. If that strikes a raw nerve with you, so be it. Seems a few of your collegues want to dish out insults, but when they get a dose of their own medicine, they whine and cry like a cat with it's tail caught in a car door. If you want to play hardball with the big boys, learn to take your lumps.....If you want this to be a mutual admiration society for tree huggers, start your own website and collect up all the nut jobs and take them with you.

Nature "modifies" itself every second of every day. What scientist are doing is to target "modifications" in a controlled manner rather than the willy nilly random adaptations so as to sustain life on this planet. Without the work done to "modify nature" as you put it, we would still be at the same production rates as we were in the 1800's. Food would have ran out for most of the worlds populous decades ago. Whether you like it or not, whether you UNDERSTAND it or not, the newest technology is FAR SAFER than allowing the vast majority of the world to starve to death. Cross breeding of crops has been around since the beginning of agriculture. The SCIENCE of cross breeding plants was begun in earnest about 65 years ago. What we are experiencing NOW is that same science taken to a whole new level. In spite of what some may think, we cannot turn back time and return to the stone age.

Taking a gene from a lightning bug and putting it into a pig so it glows in the dark is not something that nature would do. Nor would I want to eat it!
 
   / The world according to Monsanto II #105  
So we're supposed to just believe you have 4+ degrees? Where's the proof? How do we know you're 64? You post like a 19 year old that passed a couple college science classes & now thinks he knows everything. And that just because you did a little science experiment, & what you thought would happen appears to have actually happened, you're now an expert ... I'm sorry, THE expert.

In any case, assuming it's true, all those degrees make it sound a lot more like you're a professional student, aka a theorist, then a professional anything else. Nonetheless, a 64 year old farmer with 5 degrees & the inability to post calm, mature, rational responses to posts online he deems inaccurate - I bow to you. You are The Master.



That's right, nature modifies itself ... It's humans modifying nature that concerns me.



I'm not so sure that would've been a bad thing. You're implying that over-populating the world, & continuing to do so at better & better rates, is a good thing. Where does it stop?



Safer for who? I think I'd be a lot safer with say 6 million people on earth rather than 6 billion, or whatever the figure is.



Again ... even if you are dead right about all this, why do you have to come across as such a d!ck about it? In my experience most educated professionals that are actually correct do not have to be A-holes to convey their correctness. Actually, I do know one professional engineer who is like that: Everybody thinks he's an A-hole, but he is completely clueless to it. You can no longer claim to have not been told.

I was trying to think of similar examples that show that even though you believe 65 years of doing something sets it in stone that it's right, does not necessarily mean it's so. Communism might work: For many, many years many people thought communism was a good idea. Some still do. I think the masses now know better. Flat Earth might work; How long did many people believe the earth was flat. I imagine plenty of smart-for-their-time scientists did their studies, calculations & experiments & were able to prove without a serious doubt by most that the earth is flat, & it wasn't until many, many years later that Flat Earth was proven wrong.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:Had to take my boots off to give you the extra two thumbs up but your post was dead on all the way thru so I had to do it Bep!

Rick
 
   / The world according to Monsanto II #106  
IMO, education (degrees) mean absolutely nothing when trying to prove intellect. It's what you take and make from an education that counts.
College curriculums are mostly set by people that can't or didn't make it in the private sector. Granted there are many dedicated educators out there but a majority of "college professors" are mainly there to try and influence students with their own often biased agendas and ideals.
In my experience in academia there are more "educated idiots" at the college teaching level than most other fields.
 
   / The world according to Monsanto II #107  
I went to high school with a very beautiful girl who aced everything all through school. I mean straight A's every time. But to talk to her, man was she dumb. Never caught sarcasm. Never understood jokes. She was the greatest book student ever. Street smarts or ability to apply knowledge: None. She is probably a teacher today, come to think of it!
 
   / The world according to Monsanto II #108  
IMO, education (degrees) mean absolutely nothing when trying to prove intellect. It's what you take and make from an education that counts.
College curriculums are mostly set by people that can't or didn't make it in the private sector. Granted there are many dedicated educators out there but a majority of "college professors" are mainly there to try and influence students with their own often biased agendas and ideals.
In my experience in academia there are more "educated idiots" at the college teaching level than most other fields.

"Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach."
 
   / The world according to Monsanto II #109  
"Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach."

IMO, the best teachers are those that were successful in thier fields of endeavor early in life and have gone on to share (as teachers) their knowledge and experience.
 
   / The world according to Monsanto II #110  
IMO, the best teachers are those that were successful in thier fields of endeavor early in life and have gone on to share (as teachers) their knowledge and experience.

Hey, I didn't make up that line. I just shamelessly passed it along :laughing:

What you say makes perfect sense! But how common is that individual?
 

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