Generators - Backfeeding - 120V

[Obed]

When I was in the Navy on nuclear submarines, we used red paper tags to "tag out" electrical, high pressure steam, hydraulic, and even nuclear systems for maintenance and other operations. As long as people are well informed and use their brains, you can operate safely by putting a tag on a main circuit breaker that says DANGER - DO NOT OPERATE! We did this all the time and the nuclear Navy is one of the most safety conscious groups you'll ever find. I never heard of anyone getting hurt because someone operated a breaker, valve, hydraulic door, etc. that had a red tag on it.

Automatic transfer switches are idiot proof and work very well. Please keep in mind that there are more ways than one to safely hook up a generator to house. You just have to use some common sense. From the sounds of things, I think the OP has thought through his situation enough to make sure nobody gets hurt.

This thread brings up some interesting social observations about the society in which we live. When I was a kid, it was common to pile the kids in the back of a pickup truck and head down the highway. Today, I'm not allowed to drive down the block without putting enough straps around my little girl in the backseat that would hold down a maniac. I was driving tractors and dangerous hay making equipment at age 11. Today an 11 year old might need a booster seat for the tractor. Go figure.

Canada, it looks like you found a good way to power your fridge without too much trouble or expense. Thanks for posting!

Obed

 

[TimP]

This is a very educational thread. Thanks to all who have contributed.

During a very close call with a Hurricane a couple of month ago, I had to fire up my Honda 6.5Kw genny.

I have 400 amp service by way of 2x200 Amp panels. I usually run extension cords to my fridge and freezer and then to a couple of power strips for some small lighting and chargers for the phones and laptops.

This works fine if only without power for a day. But I am also on well water and that means no water without power to my well pump which is 220V.

My genny has only one 240V/30Amp outlet and all the rest are 120V/20Amp.

It looked like it was going to be a while without power ( it actually ended up being 6 days) and I didn't want to pack up and go elsewhere so.... I did the back feed.

I actually took a double pole 30Amp breaker and wired my 30Amp outlet plug to the breaker where my well pump was located. I did a suicide plug using a 20amp 120V outlet to my other panel and was able to power up 1/2 of that panel.

I have natural gas to the house, so I had a gas fireplace if needed, but as a bonus, I have a Natural gas water heater. So I ended up with HOT running water.

I had some lights and my fridges and freezer were also covered too. Being a Honda, it ran fine and handled the load.

BUT.. I would LOVE to be able to energize both bus bars on the one panel that I ran the 120V/20 Amp power to.

I am extremly stingy with the circuits I would power and would like to be able to use my ceiling fans if it is hot. I know I don't have anywhere near enough power to run my A/C.

I am getting a quote from an Electrician to swap out my two existing panesl with some made by Reliance and they have a built-in generator breaker lock-outs on them.

But what is the better method if I wanted to energize both bus bars on the one panel using only the 120v line ?

Should I use two suicide plugs run into two receptacles on opposing legs, or use a jumper on a Mini breaker? I lean more towards the jumper on a Mini breaker as I do not like that suicide plug at all. Although I guess I could eleminate the suicide plug altogether and wire the 120V/20Amp into a doubel mini breaker and use a jumper for now.

I was going to originally use a jumper to engergize both legs, but I was concerned about the problem with the neutral as well. My house is only 12 years old and I do not beleive I have any shared neutrals or Multi-wire circuits. But I was concerened about the neutral imbalance problem.

From what I've read here, it seems it should not be a problem.

Anyone care to comment further about how using a jumper on a mini breaker and powering both legs of the panel using one 120v/20amp line would work... or not work... or what danger/problems I may face using that method?

Thanks for the input.

 

[aczlan]

I have 400 amp service by way of 2x200 Amp panels. I usually run extension cords to my fridge and freezer and then to a couple of power strips for some small lighting and chargers for the phones and laptops.

How far apart are these two panels? Are they electrically connected?
Being as you have a 240v 30 amp breaker (equal to 2 30 amp 120v breakers), if the panels are close and the neutrals are connected (ie: both panels feed off of one meter), I would get a pair of the interlock kits (such as those sold by: Generator InterLock Kit - Kit Selection), run a line from your generator location to the 30 amp interlocked breaker on each panel and shut down the unneeded breakers in each panel.

~$300-500 for parts and you are good to go.
If you have 240v available from your generator DO NOT MESS WITH CONNECTING THE PHASES. It isn't worth it.

Aaron Z

 

[Canada_CT230]

I'm the OP of this thread and here it what I did.

Originally I just moved a few circuit breakers to the 1 live side of the panel. I got pretty much the essentials on the one 120v circuit.

Recently...I found a great deal on a new 240v / 6500w (running) generator. I now back feed through a 60 foot 10 AWG cord to the clothes dryer plug with a suicide cord.

I tried it out the other day and it works great! Transfer switches are the legal way but economically I can't do that. $800 for a moron switch...can't do it. My procedures are written out... tags are used and nobody but me touches it.

 

[Travelover]

.............
I have 400 amp service by way of 2x200 Amp panels. I usually run extension cords to my fridge and freezer and then to a couple of power strips for some small lighting and chargers for the phones and laptops.

This works fine if only without power for a day. But I am also on well water and that means no water without power to my well pump which is 220V.

My genny has only one 240V/30Amp outlet and all the rest are 120V/20Amp.

.............

With your two panels and the availability of a 240v 30 amp plug on your generator, I'd buy a Gentran box and add it next to the service panels. Less than $300, easy to install, legal and foolproof. It gives you ten circuits including 220 v for a well, etc.

Gentran Corporation: Generator Transfer switches for home & business

 

[pilot-werx]

the answer is .....no. you'd have to do some rewiring to power both legs of a 2 leg system off of one leg. Get some split mini breakers and add some breaker spaces to the leg thats under generator power. you'd have to rewire both sides of the panel together and do it thru a breaker powerful enough to handle the combined load. I could do it...but i wouldn't.

In an airplane i guess you could try to force a autolite sparkplug into the engine cause you cant afford a proper aviation spark plug......but would you do it???

That is the best aviation quote I have heard in a long time!

 

[grsthegreat]

That is the best aviation quote I have heard in a long time!

No the best (or worst if you want) was at a restaurant in Seattle's airport. There was a southwest pilot eating in the next booth talking to another pilot. Discussing safety issues . As usual i butted in and said that it didn't matter whose airline you flew...they were all maintained the same.
He then told me " How much maintenance do you think your $99 air fair paid for"

Sobering thought.

 

[TimP]

How far apart are these two panels? Are they electrically connected?
Being as you have a 240v 30 amp breaker (equal to 2 30 amp 120v breakers), if the panels are close and the neutrals are connected (ie: both panels feed off of one meter), I would get a pair of the interlock kits (such as those sold by: Generator InterLock Kit - Kit Selection), run a line from your generator location to the 30 amp interlocked breaker on each panel and shut down the unneeded breakers in each panel.

~$300-500 for parts and you are good to go.
If you have 240v available from your generator DO NOT MESS WITH CONNECTING THE PHASES. It isn't worth it.

Aaron Z

Aaron,

They are side by side and fed thru only one meter.

The "InterLockkit" lockout are not code approved in my jurisdiction since they are not UL approved. Read their fine print and they say "Tested to UL standards" but they are not UL approved. That's why I plan to have those new panels with the interlocks built in installed.

Thanks, Tim

 

[TimP]

With your two panels and the availability of a 240v 30 amp plug on your generator, I'd buy a Gentran box and add it next to the service panels. Less than $300, easy to install, legal and foolproof. It gives you ten circuits including 220 v for a well, etc.

Gentran Corporation: Generator Transfer switches for home & business

That's what I want to avoid.. I don't want a sub-panel... I want the ability to pick and choose which circuits I want.

But thanks for the suggestion.

 

[aczlan]

The "InterLockkit" lockout are not code approved i my jurisdiction since they are not UL approved. Read their fine print and they say "Tested to UL standard" but they are not UL approved. That's why I plan to have those new panels with the interlocks built in installed.

Gotta love lawyers.
That makes sense for your situation.

Aaron Z