Ford 1700 clutch adjustment

[barbqranch]

A lesson I learned a long time ago, and it wasn't an easy lesson to take to heart: If you are working on a problem, can't see what causes it, and you run into something else that needs fixing but couldn't possibly be causing the first problem, go ahead and fix what you know is wrong and often the first problem will go away.

In other words, I would replace the starter, get that working, then see to the clutch. One thing at a time, you know the starter needs replacing.

 

[JC-jetro]

can't figure out what could happen to allow slippage if the friction plate is of full thickness,

okay... I'm beginning to see the picture. the statement you made above is true but see after looking at your pic closer, there is a gap between the surface of pressure plate and the the clutch disk (friction disk). Below you see the picture of my clutch. I'm not 100% sure now but I clearly remember on some of the pictures I did have the clutch pedal pushed in by help of a piece of 2x4 to simulate the disengagement.



I'll think about it more, but when you say at times it slips, does it mean you actually started it at some point? I know if you get a light and have some one push the pedal on demand you'll be able to see the throwout bearing moving forward and then return. I'm thinking may be bearing holder is rusted solid to the shaft. You can also raise the rear axle, support it securely on two jack stand and then have someone turn the wheels by hand. that should try to turn the input shaft and the clutch assembly along with the engine. you might have to take off or loosen the glow plugs to make it easier to turn (releasing the compression in the cylinder). that might give you an opportunity to look in thru the inspection hole and find out some diagnostic information. I think we might be able by process of elimination find the cause.


JC,

 

[284 International]

...If you are working on a problem, can't see what causes it, and you run into something else that needs fixing but couldn't possibly be causing the first problem, go ahead and fix what you know is wrong and often the first problem will go away. In other words, I would replace the starter, get that working, then see to the clutch. One thing at a time, you know the starter needs replacing.

This is good advice, and I agree; I've been fighting getting the starter replaced or repaired for the last couple weeks. I was wanting to determine if the rest of the tractor was in good enough shape to justify the expense of the starter (New Holland wants an absurd $1100, plus tax:confused2 before popping for one of those. I've got one on order now, though.

Depressing the clutch pedal opens the gap more between the pressure plate and the disk, and releasing it puts it back to how it is in the photograph. It appears, as shown in the photograph, that there is a little bit of a gap even when the clutch pedal is all the way out. It's conceivable the throwout bearing holder may be catching or hanging. It looks as if that is visible through the transmission under the steering box.

I have never seen the tractor run.

When attempting the pull start, every once in awhile the engine blades would move some-perhaps a quarter turn-then not move at all. The tires were rolling all the time, and not locked up. It never spun the engine even a full revolution.

 

[rayikeo2]

Check this and reply
1) When you are sitting in the tractor seat and you start pushing in on the clutch pedal with your foot: Can you push the pedal in ar least 1 inch before there is any engagement pressure of any kind? This is called "free travel"

2) if you are getting instant pressure of the pedal with no "free travel" the clutch pedal needs adjusting.

3) If you have the required free travel and the clutch is still slipping, you have some other "clutch" problem.

Pull starting possible Damage:
1) the manual says never atempt to pull start.
2) reason (not from the manual): Diesels have to be pre heated to start and have extremely high compression to overcome.
3) you will be slamming your cold engine and transmission "instantly" to 1000 to 1500 rpm with crankshaft breaking torque force. Rear tractor tires don't slip. Something else in the drive line has to give, and it won't be pretty.

 

[284 International]

1) There is no perceptible free travel of the clutch pedal.

2) I have adjusted the clutch pedal in the only way I know how, by adjusting the threaded rod between the clutch and the bell crank. Even with minimal thread engagement on the nut, there is still constant tension on the pedal.

3) With the clutch pedal disconnected entirely the slippage is the same.

4) When the clutch pedal is disconnected, there is some free rotation on the bell crank, but it does not affect the slipping clutch.



Thanks for the input about pull starting. I understand what you're saying, I guess, I just don't see those factors really applying the way I tried it. (The manual saying not to is sufficient for me, though.) I was pulling it at under 0.5 mph, (Low/low on another tractor) with the tractor in the highest gear and range, which would yield about 200 engine rpm, and easing out on the clutch. Either way, thanks for the feedback on not pulling it; I won't be doing that in an attempt to start anyway. I have no interest in abusing my machinery or doing things that may shorten their lifespan. If the manual says not to, I'm content with that. Again, thank you for the continued help.

 

[rayikeo2]

It's been a long time since I adjusted my clutch so my memory needs refreshed. I assume from your posts you are lengthing the rod. Maybe you need to shorten it. (thats the part I don't remember). This is where we need some other posters to jump in with the correct procedure. Meanwhile I am going to look at mine to try to determine which way I adjusted it.:confused2:

 

[rayikeo2]

I looked at mine and if you disconnected the linkage completely like you said that would give you full engagement of the clutch. If it's slipping in that position then pedal adjustment is not the problem. My pedal free travles an inch before it starts to pull on the clutch at the clevis connection. JC will take over from here. He has done most of this type of work on his tractor. Over to JC.......

 

[284 International]

Rayikeo2, thanks for your help. I really appreciate you taking the time to check on your machine for me.

 

[JC-jetro]

1) There is no perceptible free travel of the clutch pedal.

2) I have adjusted the clutch pedal in the only way I know how, by adjusting the threaded rod between the clutch and the bell crank. Even with minimal thread engagement on the nut, there is still constant tension on the pedal.

3) With the clutch pedal disconnected entirely the slippage is the same.

4) When the clutch pedal is disconnected, there is some free rotation on the bell crank, but it does not affect the slipping clutch.



Thanks for the input about pull starting. I understand what you're saying, I guess, I just don't see those factors really applying the way I tried it. (The manual saying not to is sufficient for me, though.) I was pulling it at under 0.5 mph, (Low/low on another tractor) with the tractor in the highest gear and range, which would yield about 200 engine rpm, and easing out on the clutch. Either way, thanks for the feedback on not pulling it; I won't be doing that in an attempt to start anyway. I have no interest in abusing my machinery or doing things that may shorten their lifespan. If the manual says not to, I'm content with that. Again, thank you for the continued help.

I sure can't argue with Ray and his opinion about pull starting. he does make full sense but desperate times might require desperate measures within some common sense. If I had your rig, depending how much I paid for it and the fact of $1100 dollars for a a starter then I might make the risk of pull starting. very high gear and pulling it slow you'll much lessen the chance of damage. I realize if your tractor was an 8n with gas engine then pull start it would be a no brainer if push come to shove. I was at my place to clear some of my shooting lanes and took a look at the clutch again and took a few pictures as well. The point I was making about the gap between pressure plate and the clutch disk was a valid one. with the clutch fully out there is no gap at all between the plates. The pic below shows just that.





I took a flash light and inspected the release bearing, holder and spring. They all can be easily inspected form the side inspection hole The thing that is noteworthy is that you can inspect the actual distance between the fingers to the release bearing. I have really never needed to adjust the free play at the pedal since I had no issues. Saying that what is important is that the bearing (release) is not permanently riding the finger for the obvious reason and secondly it should not be far enough that full clutch pedal pressing does not result in full disengagement. As you can see I have about a bit more than 1/8" distance between the finger and the bearing. I would not sweat the statement that I adjusted all I could. The proof of that statement is a visual inspection that is provided for this tractor. There is no guess work none what so ever. As I was able to see the gap with a flash light you should be able to duplicate it as well. I see a possibility of your clutch pedal is out of wack (physically bent) due to hitting some obstruction leading to not being properly adjusted. if that is the case then it should not be difficult to bend it to proper shape so it would release. The only thing you can not identify looking thru the hole is if the clutch disks are sticking just buy visual observation. again by raising the rear axle you can slowly turn the wheel hence turning the clutch assembly. That would enable you to check all the 3 fingers on the pressure plate. With max adjustment and if the bearing is touching the finger is sure enough indication of problem.



Can you identify the one finger shown and the bearing?


I usually block the clutch pedal using a piece of 2x4 in order to keep the disk wanting to rust and lock together. I'm wondering if in your tractor previous life someone done that very severely and for a long time where the pressure plate spring lost it's stiffness. I hope yo do not have a busted input shaft splines although pretty unlikely from your statement.

what is the background of the tractor? what's the story of the starter? do you have a dead starter or nothing at all ? do you know if your tractor ever ran prior to your purchase.


JC,

 

[284 International]

I've sent off for a replacement starter, so that should be resolved in a few weeks. A rebuilder most of the way across the country is supposed to rebuild it if they can, and sell me a new one if they cannot.

Backstory on the tractor: I picked it up 2 weeks ago as a project/fixer upper (as I usually do) knowing it had a weak starter. It would turn over very, very slowly, but nowhere near enough to start. I had found some starters for less than what New Holland wants (which isn't hard), so it seemed like a decent bargain. I pulled the starter apart, but it needed more help than I can give it (At least one of the field coils is shot, as well as the solenoid and brushes).

Since I couldn't start it, the status of the rest of the tractor was/is unknown. The previous owner said he had used it a couple weeks before, had starter trouble, and parked it on the trailer.


I agree with you that there is something amiss keeping the clutch partly disengaged. I just can't figure out what. The throwout bearing is in contact with at least two fingers of the pressure plate, even with the clutch pedal entirely disconnected from the linkage.

I guess the next step is to pull the steering column and see if there is something simple causing the throwout bearing to hang in a forward position. I just can't figure out what the likely cause of this trouble might be.

Thank you, JC-jetro, for taking the time and effort to help me through this, and take pictures of your tractor.