Best all around gun?

   / Best all around gun? #101  
This is incorrect.

Birdshot and trap loads are for birds and clays, and not home defense. Birdshot and similar loads lack sufficient penetration to stop a determined threat. Moreover, an assailant wearing a heavy jacket will suffer at worst only superficial penetration of the pellets.

Wrooster


lets look at that simple , non dangerous sounding phrase... "superficial penetration of the pellets"

I wonder, havn't tested it mind you, I wonder.. how deep a pellet has to go into the eye, especially if you have a handfull of these pellets, before what maight be superficial to a heavy jacket, becoes.. well.. 'significan injury' ??

if someones breaking in to kill me.. and all i got is a scattergun with 5 loads of #8 they are getting as many as it takes for the thread to stop. if they decide that after the first couple, and are? blind? maybee that they will stop.. cool. otherwise if they keep coming they get em all.. and if they still have a lil left after that.. I'm holding a big metal and wooden club they will get as I retreat further to grab another means of self defense..

so.. i guess this discussion depends on how thick thet vitreous membrane of the eye is? when my horse had eye surgery ( losing his eye unfortunately ).. it looked pretty skimpy?

i can't imagine a humaneye or eye lid is that much more 'bullet proof'.

your rights end where mine begine.. some one break in to hurt me.. i get to pull all the stops out to try to prevent it.. at least in florida where victoms actually have rights anyway.

soundguy
 
   / Best all around gun? #102  
lets look at that simple , non dangerous sounding phrase... "superficial penetration of the pellets"

I wonder, havn't tested it mind you, I wonder.. how deep a pellet has to go into the eye, especially if you have a handfull of these pellets, before what maight be superficial to a heavy jacket, becoes.. well.. 'significan injury' ??

if someones breaking in to kill me.. and all i got is a scattergun with 5 loads of #8 they are getting as many as it takes for the thread to stop. if they decide that after the first couple, and are? blind? maybee that they will stop.. cool. otherwise if they keep coming they get em all.. and if they still have a lil left after that.. I'm holding a big metal and wooden club they will get as I retreat further to grab another means of self defense..

so.. i guess this discussion depends on how thick thet vitreous membrane of the eye is? when my horse had eye surgery ( losing his eye unfortunately ).. it looked pretty skimpy?

i can't imagine a humaneye or eye lid is that much more 'bullet proof'.

your rights end where mine begine.. some one break in to hurt me.. i get to pull all the stops out to try to prevent it.. at least in florida where victoms actually have rights anyway.

soundguy
My barn is very close to large oak trees. One of the jobs I use my 12 gauge pump for is to shoot off limbs that are scraping the barn roof. y'all should see what game loads will do to a 2" oak limb at up to 10 yards. The limb looks like it was hit with a high power rifle shot.

Of course, we all know that only deranged jihadists fire high power rifles into the air.
 
   / Best all around gun? #103  
how deep a pellet has to go into the eye
You are aiming at the assailant's head?

At a typical home defense distance of 10-12 feet, the pellet pattern from a typical 18" HD shotgun will be only about 2" to 3" in diameter. A cylinder bore 18" or 20" barrel the pattern spread is approximately 1" per yard per tests conducted at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center. Ergo you HAVE to aim -- carefully -- to hit the target.

And if you are aiming, you should be aiming COM -- center of mass, because most folks don't stand there and wait for you to shoot (at) them. Hitting a moving, bobbing head "in the eye" in diminished light, under stress, with modest appreciation to the backdrop, is simply not going to happen. Can you get lucky? Sure. But you should tilt the playing field in your direction as much as possible, and not rely on luck.

Ditch the birdshot -- it is for birds, not home defense.

See also,
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot22.htm

Wrooster

Below, the pattern of 20ga #8 bird shot at 15 feet:
22-4.jpg
 
   / Best all around gun? #105  
You are aiming at the assailant's head?

At a typical home defense distance of 10-12 feet, the pellet pattern from a typical 18" HD shotgun will be only about 2" to 3" in diameter. A cylinder bore 18" or 20" barrel the pattern spread is approximately 1" per yard per tests conducted at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center. Ergo you HAVE to aim -- carefully -- to hit the target.

And if you are aiming, you should be aiming COM -- center of mass, because most folks don't stand there and wait for you to shoot (at) them. Hitting a moving, bobbing head "in the eye" in diminished light, under stress, with modest appreciation to the backdrop, is simply not going to happen. Can you get lucky? Sure. But you should tilt the playing field in your direction as much as possible, and not rely on luck.

Ditch the birdshot -- it is for birds, not home defense.

Wrooster

as far as I can find in sources from NRA publications, FBI crime statistics list 7' as the average distance in a self defense shooting.

I don't own a 'tactical' shotgun with minimum length legal bbl.

why on earth would you have pigeon loads in a tactical shotgun? are you really thinking people are using tactical shotguns for skeet or duck? the entire premise of your posts hinges on that apparrently.

A LONG BBL'd shotgun is what you would find target loads in. If my perp is 7' from my body, and my shotgun stick out a couple feet from me.. easilly.. we have reduced that to 5'

if I can't hot a 6" round target at 5' it got a problem.

lets keep rolling with that.

i will get what? 2" of spread almost? a lil shy maybee using your ?data? that means I have a 'pattern', not a point, and that pattern can be put on another target.. ie the face for instance. .. lets go farther.. neck is going to be a pretty nasty wound at that distance as well.. just not a hole lot of meat there. remember.. I can penetrate deep enough to kill a flying bir many, many, many yards away with a couple bits of shot.. at 2' somebodies neck is going to be hamburger.. what int he neck? important tubes carrying pressurized fluid to a central computer, that.. when that fluid pressure drops to 0, as is what happens whenthe tube is blown apart, the computer turns off.

so.. we have damage to sensory organs in the form of a pellet spray, some flash perhaps, minor burn.. that plastc wad ought to leave a mark as well, we have possible catastrophic neck damage, and if they are still moving, that 2nd shot I get off is probably going to be point blank.. and this time.. as you mention.. a body shot.

12g point blank.. even on a wad of birdshot.. that's going to be a devastating wound.

other things to consider that may change the circumstances drastically.. not withstanding a drug crazed lunatic, the average perp likely doesn't want to be shot.

charging someone with a big bore gun aimed at you ?? ok.. lets say you take the chance.

-BANG- ok.. you are closer now and have that strange warm wet feeling, and may or may not be able to see or hear either due to the muzzle flash you are staring at, or the wad of pellets that had a GOOD chance of hitting your face.. or.. you may already be dead and just don't realize it from that 'bleed out fast' neck shot... ok.. lets keep assuming you took the chance and charged the guy with the smoke pole and took one somewhere.. but waow.. you aren't there yet and you still got a few more feet to go, and another one comes down range.. hitting even harder. how bad do you want that dvd player? is that what's going thru your mind at that point ( unless it's some pellets that going thru your mind.. cuz it sure could be for that first shot! )

if it's the drug crazed maniac.. well.. he's taking 2 wounding shots, and I'm still health, and know my house.. and I got a club, and i got more self defense options nearby.

my money is on the well armed homeowner who knows his house and his weapons and not the invader blindly running thru, who is now wounded or wounded and not acting at full mental capacity.

home turf advantage means something.

I'll take -ANY- gun no matter what load it has in the pipe, when showing up to a fist or knife fight.

better odds.

soundguy
 
   / Best all around gun? #106  
Right on, soundguy!!!

It they would practice to become proficient I think most folks would be well served by a Taurus Judge for home defense, snake protection, close up varmints, etc. Not claiming best solution for everyone and not for me but I am atypical... still who knows I may get a Judge. Wife packs a S&W .357 maggie 5 shot wheel gun and is not INTO precision shooting. She can put 4 out of her 5 inside a 6 inch circle with little or no reference to the sights and then I got her
crimson Trace laser to make it real easy.

Pat
 
   / Best all around gun? #107  
as far as I can find in sources from NRA publications, FBI crime statistics list 7' as the average distance in a self defense shooting.

I don't own a 'tactical' shotgun with minimum length legal bbl.

why on earth would you have pigeon loads in a tactical shotgun? are you really thinking people are using tactical shotguns for skeet or duck? the entire premise of your posts hinges on that apparrently.

A LONG BBL'd shotgun is what you would find target loads in. If my perp is 7' from my body, and my shotgun stick out a couple feet from me.. easilly.. we have reduced that to 5'

if I can't hot a 6" round target at 5' it got a problem.

lets keep rolling with that.

i will get what? 2" of spread almost? a lil shy maybee using your ?data? that means I have a 'pattern', not a point, and that pattern can be put on another target.. ie the face for instance. .. lets go farther.. neck is going to be a pretty nasty wound at that distance as well.. just not a hole lot of meat there. remember.. I can penetrate deep enough to kill a flying bir many, many, many yards away with a couple bits of shot.. at 2' somebodies neck is going to be hamburger.. what int he neck? important tubes carrying pressurized fluid to a central computer, that.. when that fluid pressure drops to 0, as is what happens whenthe tube is blown apart, the computer turns off.

so.. we have damage to sensory organs in the form of a pellet spray, some flash perhaps, minor burn.. that plastc wad ought to leave a mark as well, we have possible catastrophic neck damage, and if they are still moving, that 2nd shot I get off is probably going to be point blank.. and this time.. as you mention.. a body shot.

12g point blank.. even on a wad of birdshot.. that's going to be a devastating wound.

other things to consider that may change the circumstances drastically.. not withstanding a drug crazed lunatic, the average perp likely doesn't want to be shot.

charging someone with a big bore gun aimed at you ?? ok.. lets say you take the chance.

-BANG- ok.. you are closer now and have that strange warm wet feeling, and may or may not be able to see or hear either due to the muzzle flash you are staring at, or the wad of pellets that had a GOOD chance of hitting your face.. or.. you may already be dead and just don't realize it from that 'bleed out fast' neck shot... ok.. lets keep assuming you took the chance and charged the guy with the smoke pole and took one somewhere.. but waow.. you aren't there yet and you still got a few more feet to go, and another one comes down range.. hitting even harder. how bad do you want that dvd player? is that what's going thru your mind at that point ( unless it's some pellets that going thru your mind.. cuz it sure could be for that first shot! )

if it's the drug crazed maniac.. well.. he's taking 2 wounding shots, and I'm still health, and know my house.. and I got a club, and i got more self defense options nearby.

my money is on the well armed homeowner who knows his house and his weapons and not the invader blindly running thru, who is now wounded or wounded and not acting at full mental capacity.

home turf advantage means something.

I'll take -ANY- gun no matter what load it has in the pipe, when showing up to a fist or knife fight.

better odds.

soundguy

You paint a heck of a picture of some miscreant running thru the hallway with his neck blown out, WoW, talk about your "walking dead".

I promise to never go after your DVD player:laughing:
Yep anything in the way of a firearm is better than a sharp stick, and a sharp stick is usually better than your bare hands!

James K0UA
 
   / Best all around gun? #108  
Yep anything in the way of a firearm is better than a sharp stick, and a sharp stick is usually better than your bare hands!

James K0UA

That pretty much sums it up...
 
   / Best all around gun? #109  
Right on, soundguy!!!

It they would practice to become proficient I think most folks would be well served by a Taurus Judge for home defense, snake protection, close up varmints, etc. Not claiming best solution for everyone and not for me but I am atypical... still who knows I may get a Judge. Wife packs a S&W .357 maggie 5 shot wheel gun and is not INTO precision shooting. She can put 4 out of her 5 inside a 6 inch circle with little or no reference to the sights and then I got her
crimson Trace laser to make it real easy.

Pat

i own a circuit judge.. but at it's length.. I'd be better served with my 12g pump.

my wife carries a t85 tarus 38 snub revolver, I carry .380.. but at home, there is a .38 S&W on my night stand.

both 38's are +P for emergency use. The 12g is arms length above the bed and is loaded with a variety of cartridges, with more in a fast load sleeve on the gun, IF needed.

soundguy
 
   / Best all around gun? #110  
You paint a heck of a picture of some miscreant running thru the hallway with his neck blown out, WoW, talk about your "walking dead".

I promise to never go after your DVD player:laughing:
Yep anything in the way of a firearm is better than a sharp stick, and a sharp stick is usually better than your bare hands!

James K0UA

just to be clear. if I fire in self defense.. it will be just that.

I'm not overly worried about a replaceable piece of property.. my family on the other hand.. or my safety.. well.. some perp will have to be darn tough, fight hard, adn be bullet proof ... i've got nothing to loose when fighting for the defense of my friends and loved ones... the perp has everything to loose.

soundguy
 

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