Best all around gun?

[patrick_g]

The sights on these type guns is a consideration. A .223/20 gauge combo would be hard to fit for the perfect sights. A .223 is long ranged enough for a scope. A shotgun doesn't need a scope. The choice of calibers is just about perfect.

We are not discussing long range target shooting perfection but practical shooting. There are scope mounting rings that elevate the scope so you can see under it to use the iron sights. This is only a little bit of a compromise in scope mounting/use and gives MOST of the best of both worlds.

I'd consider a .22 rimfire magnum with a 12 ga. as it is easier to load a 12 down than a 20 up. That is just me. Personally if I want to prep for long range I have a 22-250, 30-06, Weatherby mag, and a 6.5 Creedmore semi-auto which is good for target shooting out to 1000 meters plus in case you need to stop 5 gal cans from getting out of hand at that distance.

.223/20 ga would certainly make a fine combo but I would prefer the 16 ga or 12 ga.

The Savage 24 series is available in several combinations.


.22LR/.410 .22LR/20 Gauge
.22WMR/20 Gauge .22 Hornet/20 Gauge
.222 Rem/20 Gauge .223 Rem/20 Gauge
.30-30/20 Gauge .357 Mag/20 Gauge
.22 Hornet/12 Gauge .222 Rem/12 Gauge
.223 Rem/12 Gauge .30-30/12 Gauge

None of these are bad combos. Any of these could be the best for a given set of requirements. They are rugged reliable and easy to train on.

If you drop long range requirements the Taurus Judge handgun suggests itself. It shoots any .410 shotgun ammo or .45 long Colt pistol ammo interchangeably with no mods, just load it up. You are reduced to moderate pistol ranges but within that limitation you have a handful of firepower.
Patrick

 

[Baranx4]

If I am not mistaken, rossie makes a youth kit that is called the triple threat. Has a .243, 20 gauge, and .22; all are single shot and you have to change out the barrels which takes all of 30 seconds. Comes in a case too that you could bring with you.
as far as 20 vs 12, my single shot h&r 20 hits harder then my 870 12 gauge.

Rossi also make a verson that also includes a 410. That's what I am getting my son this year. As he grows you can add a recoil pad to make the stock longer.

 

[dmccarty]

All of my Pump shotguns...12 ga and 20 ga. have the plugs in the tubes...anyone know how I can safely take those plugs out so I can load more shells...

If you take the guns a' hunt'n, make sure they are still legal without the plugs. I know the states in which I have lived, limited the number of rounds in the shot gun. The Feds may as well if hunting migratory birds.

Do not have five rounds in the magazine if they hunting statue says you can only have three or four. Even if you have the legal number of rounds in the magazine, I think some states will still write you up if the magazine will accept more than the law allows.

Later,
Dan

 

[wrooster]

Esp at 5 yds or less. With a full choke or turkey choke, they will rip a golfball sized hole in someones chest!

This is incorrect.

Birdshot and trap loads are for birds and clays, and not home defense. Birdshot and similar loads lack sufficient penetration to stop a determined threat. Moreover, an assailant wearing a heavy jacket will suffer at worst only superficial penetration of the pellets.

Wrooster

Home Defense Shotgun Ammo

Fackler-IWBA recommends a minimum of 12 inches of penetration. This 12 inch minimum penetration performance guideline is meant to ensure that the bullet has adequate penetration potential to reach and disrupt vital organs. The 12 inch standard is the prevailing barometer used by the F.B.I., Dr. Fackler, and other reputable sources. Anything less than 12 inches is insufficient and inadequate. Not understanding this has already cost too many people their lives. Bird shot is not an acceptable self-defense shotshell round. To believe that it is could get you killed, and that has been the sad outcome in too many incidents. The appropriate value for minimum penetration depth has generally been assumed to be 12 inches ever since the first FBI wound ballistics meeting in 1987.

We have effectiveness in eliminating life-threatening danger as the sole priority. No one wants to be forced to use a firearm to save lives, but if so forced it must work without fail. There is no substitution for proper training in home defense. It is serious business, one that commands study and practice as though your life and your family�s life depended on it�as that is the general idea.

The Box O' Truth #3 - The Shotgun Meets the Box O' Truth - Page 2

Birdshot as a Defense Load
I have had a lot of questions, summed up as follows: How effective is birdshot (#4, #6, #8, etc.) as a defense load?

We have done tests with various birdshot loads. Birdshot penetrated through two pieces of drywall (representing one wall) and was stopped in the paper on the front of the second wall. The problem with birdshot is that it does not penetrate enough to be effective as a defense round. Birdshot is designed to bring down little birds.

A policeman told of seeing a guy shot at close range with a load of 12 gauge birdshot, and was not even knocked down. He was still walking around when the EMTs got there. It was an ugly, shallow wound, but did not STOP the guy. And that is what we want... to STOP the bad guy from whatever he is doing. To do this, you must have a load that will reach the vitals of the bad guy. Birdshot will not do this.

In fact, tests have shown that even #4 Buckshot lacks the necessary penetration to reach the vital organs. Only 0 Buck, 00 Buck, and 000 Buck penetrate enough to reach the vital organs.

Unless you expect to be attacked by little birds, do not use birdshot. Use 00 Buck. It will do the job.

But doesn't 00 Buck penetrate too much in interior walls to be a "safe" load in a home?
Yes, it does penetrate a lot. But any load that is going to be effective will need to penetrate walls to have enough power to penetrate bad guys. If our only concern was to be sure we didn't penetrate walls, we would use BB guns. However, BB guns will not stop bad guys.

Therefore, we must use loads that will STOP bad guys, and this means that they will also penetrate walls. So, be sure you hit the bad guy and do not shoot into walls where loved ones are on the other side.

When To Use Birdshot
A friend of AR15.com sends this:

"I saw a gunshot victim, about 5' 10" and 200 lbs, taken to the operating room with a shotgun wound to the chest. He was shot at a range of six feet at a distance of just over the pectoralis muscle. He was sitting on his front porch and walked to the ambulance. We explored the chest after x-rays were taken. The ER doc had said 'buckshot' wound, but this was obviously not accurate.

It was # 6 shot. There was a crater in the skin over an inch in diameter. When the shot hit the level of the ribs, it spread out about five inches. There was ONE pellet that had passed between the ribs and entered the pericardium, but not damaged the heart at all. As you say, 'use birdshot for little birds.'"

eMJA: Herdson, Shotgun suicide with a difference

This report describes a suicide in which death by gunshot was achieved on the third attempt, with the deceased showing remarkable stamina following the first two attempts. He walked about 15 metres from the site of inflicting the first, relatively superficial but obviously painful wound to his chest. At a second attempt, he shot out his larynx. Then, breathing through a gunshot-induced tracheostomy, he moved about 136 metres over parkland to make a final attempt.

 

[foggy1111]

We are not discussing long range target shooting perfection but practical shooting. There are scope mounting rings that elevate the scope so you can see under it to use the iron sights. This is only a little bit of a compromise in scope mounting/use and gives MOST of the best of both worlds.

I'd consider a .22 rimfire magnum with a 12 ga. as it is easier to load a 12 down than a 20 up. That is just me. Personally if I want to prep for long range I have a 22-250, 30-06, Weatherby mag, and a 6.5 Creedmore semi-auto which is good for target shooting out to 1000 meters plus in case you need to stop 5 gal cans from getting out of hand at that distance.

.223/20 ga would certainly make a fine combo but I would prefer the 16 ga or 12 ga.

The Savage 24 series is available in several combinations.


.22LR/.410 .22LR/20 Gauge
.22WMR/20 Gauge .22 Hornet/20 Gauge
.222 Rem/20 Gauge .223 Rem/20 Gauge
.30-30/20 Gauge .357 Mag/20 Gauge
.22 Hornet/12 Gauge .222 Rem/12 Gauge
.223 Rem/12 Gauge .30-30/12 Gauge

None of these are bad combos. Any of these could be the best for a given set of requirements. They are rugged reliable and easy to train on.

If you drop long range requirements the Taurus Judge handgun suggests itself. It shoots any .410 shotgun ammo or .45 long Colt pistol ammo interchangeably with no mods, just load it up. You are reduced to moderate pistol ranges but within that limitation you have a handful of firepower.
Patrick

I own a Savage 24 combo. It has the 223 over a 20 gauge and I have the all-weather stock. It sports a good 3x9 scope with see though rings. Seems accurate enough.

When I bought it....I thought it would be handy to take along on a 4 wheeler or when varmint calling. Not so. It's really too heavy to want to carry it for most folks....a bit too long and bulky to fit onto a four-wheeler or into a scabbard.....and I always fear I'm gonna get punched in the head with the scope when I shoot the shotgun barrel. Probably not a reality....but its hard to snuggle up to the iron sights.

Maybe if I had some peep sights on this gun I may like it better? I sure like the skinner peeps on my lever guns. Fast and accurate. :thumbsup:

As posted earlier.....instead....we carry the Rossi or Marlin Lever-action 357 magnum carbines as our all-purpose trail gun. Enough horsepower and range to get the job done.....and short, light and easy to pack....no recoil. "The original assault rifle".....lever action.

 

[wrooster]

I can't, for the life of me, understand why people worship a butt ugly AR platform and the Rock River is heavy. I know, I have one.

The RRA which was linked to is heavy because it uses an inexpensive-to-manufacture bull barrel, which is unneeded in ANY AR15 application. Much lighter barrels exist -- such as the M4 profile and lightweight profile -- and provide a more balanced firearm.

..and you must live on some distant planet because a .223/5.56 NATO round (22 caliber) is basically a weinie bullet.

Yes, it is a .224 caliber projectile, but the fact is that it is going more than 3100fps. Kinetic energy = 0.5(m)(v)^2, where m is mass and v is velocity. The energy goes up as the square of velocity. Because of the high velocity, the Remington .223/5.56 NATO and the common .22LR rimfire have NOTHING to do with each other other than the diameter. Nevertheless, the versatility of the AR15 as a lightweight platform is the key here, not the ability to drop brown bear and whatever else you have imagined. Which brings us to...

Put it up against a Moose and you'll have hoof prints on your forehead. The heaviest bullet weight you can load is 60 grains. That's it.

Really? So the 62gr NATO M855 round which is standard issue to US troops is not greater than 60gr? And the 69gr SMK (Sierra Match King) favored by competitive three-gun shooters is not either? and the 77gr Federal Gold Medal Match used by law enforcement, and the Mk262mod1 77gr Black Hills used in the mil SPR are not either?

Great for elimination of **** Sapiens, small game and toads and an ocassional prarie dog or a deer in the open, but that's it.

First you say your .223/5.56mm AR platform is too heavy. And now you want to drop a moose in his tracks. Maybe a really lightweight .338 Lapua Magnum is available somewhere?



Now let's revisit the OP's questions:

I know that there is no perfect gun for every situation, but what would be the best all around gun for the rural living? Something that would be used for home protection, shooting that coyote that is about to get into your chicken coup, the wild rabid dog coming towards your kids, a racoon in your garage...etc. Needs to be durable and able to take the abuse while attached to the quad. Something that is simple for the wife to operate.

Note the following points: 1) all-around, 2) home defense, 3) coyote/dog/raccoon, 4) durable, 5) wife.

-- The AR15 has a no-tools extensible buttstock, which adjusts to both a man's larger frame and a woman's smaller frame in seconds.
-- The AR15 barrel and action are directly inline with the buttstock, which means there is very little if any muzzle rise when shooting.
-- The AR15's .223/5.56 round results in very little recoil and quicker follow up shots.
-- The AR15's cost of ammo is less than most other types; this means that given a fixed amount of money, more ammo is available to practice with -- AND PRACTICE WITH A FIREARM IS THE MOST IMPORTANT FACTOR IN OVERALL SHOOTING PERFORMANCE AND EFFECTIVENESS.
-- The AR15's wide variety of sight options make for a weapon capable of 5yd to 500yd engagements.
-- The AR15's field durability is unquestioned. Other than the unergonomic AK47/74, the AR15 has the longest operational history of any modern firearm -- and for a good reason: it works.

Wrooster

 

[k0ua]

This is incorrect.

Birdshot and trap loads are for birds and clays, and not home defense. Birdshot and similar loads lack sufficient penetration to stop a determined threat. Moreover, an assailant wearing a heavy jacket will suffer at worst only superficial penetration of the pellets.

Wrooster

Home Defense Shotgun Ammo



The Box O' Truth #3 - The Shotgun Meets the Box O' Truth - Page 2



eMJA: Herdson, Shotgun suicide with a difference

I second that motion, birdshot is for birds, buckshot and slugs for home defense. I have killed coyotes with BB size shot (.18) but at less than 20 yards. Not saying people have not been killed with birdshot, but sure needs to be close, with low amounts of clothing. Also, almost unbelievablely I answered a call when I was with the Sheriffs office of a man that had shot himself in the mouth with a .22 pistol and was still conscious and was mobile and could talk. Later I saw the x-ray of the 40 grain slug under skull. They left it in.

James K0UA

 

[RoyJackson]

I second that motion, birdshot is for birds, buckshot and slugs for home defense. I have killed coyotes with BB size shot (.18) but at less than 20 yards. Not saying people have not been killed with birdshot, but sure needs to be close, with low amounts of clothing. Also, almost unbelievablely I answered a call when I was with the Sheriffs office of a man that had shot himself in the mouth with a .22 pistol and was still conscious and was mobile and could talk. Later I saw the x-ray of the 40 grain slug under skull. They left it in.

James K0UA

One thing I see some responders focus on is killing an intruder. The intent should be to stop the intruder...if the result is his death, so be it.
But, if someone can't handle the recoil of full house 12 gage double ought...then a lighter charge is a better way to go, wouldn't you think? Especially for a follow up shot, if necessary.
Even a relatively "weak" load, at the range one would expect inside a house, would be effective enough to hinder, stop, or kill.

On a personal note, I have a pacemaker. As I tend to shoot left handed, I'd have to have the presence of mind to NOT put the butt of the shotgun up against my chest...otherwise, I might be the one needing the ambulance. I don't think I'd have that presence of mind in a home invasion.
So, I use a "low recoil" shot...and, although I recommend a shotgun for best all around weapon per the OP's description of his needs; I have an AR-15 close at hand...along with a few handguns.

But still...12 Gage would be the preferable firearm for most folks with a load that can be handled by all persons in the household.

 

[forgeblast]

Ithe best all around gun for the rural living? Something that would be used for home protection, shooting that coyote that is about to get into your chicken coup, the wild rabid dog coming towards your kids, a racoon in your garage...etc. Needs to be durable and able to take the abuse while attached to the quad. Something that is simple for the wife to operate.

I think then that reading what the op asked for I would look at a judge with the crimson trace grips. Ability to shoot 410 and .45, wheel gun ease. I think there was a compensated version I saw at a gun show.
But, to have a gun that you can stop a dog attacking the kids, you need to carry a gun on you. That points to a pistol (imho). Many ways to carry it, I even have on of the sig jackets that look like a carhart that let you carry with out a holster, there are inner pockets that act like your holster. My dad has a judge, he likes it.

 

[RobertN]

FWIW, my Grandfather was a long time commercial chicken rancher. For years, his "Ranch Gun" was a bolt action .410, and a hand full of .410 slugs and shotshells. Did everything he eve needed; skunks, rats, coyotes...