Help! Damage to cylinder

[JackDWaller]

Hi All. I am in a pickle that I'm told will cost me $554 plus tax - for a new bucket cylinder for my JD 200cx loader. I won't go into the gory details except to say that a chain hook snagged the hose attaching stud (rod end) and cleanly ripped it off. It doesn't look like the cylinder has been impacted except for the small clean circular break of the stud from the cylinder.

I am hoping it can be welded back on somehow so with that in mind I've removed the cylinder and the snap ring thinking that the piston rod should come out, but no luck. Dealer says a firm smacking pull should do the trick but I've done that with the other end secured firmly and nothing moves. In fact looking at the slot and the ring I'm puzzled as to how that ring retains anything.

If the stud can't be welded back in place then another thought was to machine a press fit ring that would have a stud in it that would align with the old hole and maybe run a tiny weld bead around the ring or maybe just sealant. At any rate, I think my odds of success (assuming welding) are best if I can get the cylinder apart.

Any helpful hints would be most welcomed. Is there likely an alternate source for the cylinder that could be cheaper?

Jack

 

[J_J]

Other than doing it your self, I would take it to a hyd shop and let them do the new port. They probably have done something like that before.

Be sure to get a written estimate, before you leave it.

 

[JackDWaller]

Two pieces of good advice - thanks. I may still deside to go that route. I have no idea what these places might charge. The more I think about it the more I believe I could come use my lathe to come up with a haywire work-around. I have more time than money

I did find the thread from 2008 - "JD Hydraulic Cylinder Rebuild Help? " and it seems to address my situation but I don't have any rebuild kit with any "special tool" and I don't fully understand what is going on here. Seems to me if the retaining slot were interfering with another ring that must come out, that at least some movement outward would be first observed and then it would hang up??

Jack

 

[oldnslo]

Two pieces of good advice - thanks. I may still deside to go that route. I have no idea what these places might charge. The more I think about it the more I believe I could come use my lathe to come up with a haywire work-around. I have more time than money

I did find the thread from 2008 - "JD Hydraulic Cylinder Rebuild Help? " and it seems to address my situation but I don't have any rebuild kit with any "special tool" and I don't fully understand what is going on here. Seems to me if the retaining slot were interfering with another ring that must come out, that at least some movement outward would be first observed and then it would hang up??

Jack

Jack,
If you pulled hard enough to rip the coupling/stud off of the cylinder it also may have bent the cylinder housing some in that area which could pinch the end cap or the piston into the cylinder. Just a thought, are there any threaded holes in the end cap where you could put bolts in and use them to try and pull the end cap out?

Roy

 

[JackDWaller]

Thanks Roy. The chain hook caught right next to the cylinder and although I agree with your concern, it appears that it's a clean break with no deformation. Certainly the piston slides perfectly from end to end. However, perhaps this has something to do with the problem getting it apart, but I suspect that I'm not approaching the disassembly properly. I think I'll abandon trying to disassemble the cylinder. I'll plug the hole when cleaning the paint off that area on the cylinder

Since it's now a few hours after the accident, I have settled down to thinking a bit more clearly and there is no way I will spend $600 on a cylinder. I plan to weld/machine a split collar, much like two connecting rod caps that will pull together over the missing nipple (hole). I'll press and weld the old nipple in place in the collar/cap after I machine off a section of its thread (there is just enough length). There is ample room for a modest collar when the cylinder is fully retracted. After buffing off the paint I plan to use a touch of silicone and then pull the halves together.

So that's the plan, barring better advice from the good TBN folk.

Jack

 

[leonz]

Hello Jack,

After all this I would buy a replacement cylinder
from Prince or Parker and not fool with it as you
will spend much less money.

 

[strum456]

Hello Jack,

After all this I would buy a replacement cylinder
from Prince or Parker and not fool with it as you
will spend much less money.

If your local hydraulic shop is anything like ours, this might be the cheaper option. Check out Bailey Hydraulic Cylinders Manufacturer

 

[JackDWaller]

Thanks. If I hunt up a non-JD cylinder that appears to be closely sized, is there any issue I might run into relative to a mismatch with the other side? Haven't had much hydraulics experience.

Jack

 

[Mace Canute]

Thanks Roy. The chain hook caught right next to the cylinder and although I agree with your concern, it appears that it's a clean break with no deformation. Certainly the piston slides perfectly from end to end. However, perhaps this has something to do with the problem getting it apart, but I suspect that I'm not approaching the disassembly properly. I think I'll abandon trying to disassemble the cylinder. I'll plug the hole when cleaning the paint off that area on the cylinder

Since it's now a few hours after the accident, I have settled down to thinking a bit more clearly and there is no way I will spend $600 on a cylinder. I plan to weld/machine a split collar, much like two connecting rod caps that will pull together over the missing nipple (hole). I'll press and weld the old nipple in place in the collar/cap after I machine off a section of its thread (there is just enough length). There is ample room for a modest collar when the cylinder is fully retracted. After buffing off the paint I plan to use a touch of silicone and then pull the halves together.

So that's the plan, barring better advice from the good TBN folk.

Jack

Somehow I don't think that will be a satisfactory repair but, as they say, it's your cow...milk her anyway you want.

I did find this on the interweb...not sure if it pertains to your cylinder or not, but the possibility exists that it does so here you go! Hopefully something there here help.

http://golftechs.us/Manuals/JDhydcyl.pdf

 

[strum456]

You have to get a cylinder that is the same exact diameter and length, or you will have proportioning problems for sure. Depending on the pin size, you might need to using bushings to make that part of it work. Baileynet.com has those too.

 

[J_J]

Here are some more post about welding on cyl.

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/hydraulics/150750-welding-hydraulic-cylinder-ok-without.html

 

[TraderMark]

I am hoping it can be welded back on somehow so with that in mind I've removed the cylinder and the snap ring thinking that the piston rod should come out, but no luck. Dealer says a firm smacking pull should do the trick but I've done that with the other end secured firmly and nothing moves. In fact looking at the slot and the ring I'm puzzled as to how that ring retains anything.

Jack

Jack,
IIRC, there's another ring holding your cylinder together.
I'll attach a drawing so you can see the parts I'm refering to.

I think you've already removed the outer ring, item #3.
Once you remove this ring you must push/gently drive the gland back into the cylinder barrell so that you can access the second ring, item #8.
After you remove the second ring, you should be able to pull the rod and gland out of the barrell.

Item #3 keeps the gland from going back into the barrell. Item #8 is what actually prevents the gland from coming out of the barrell.

Hope this helps.

Mark

 

[TraderMark]

Jack,

Looking at that diagram again, I may be wrong.
They show item #8 as a split ring in one place and as a solid ring that's part of the packing kit in another place.


Easy way to tell is ... if item #3 goes in a groove on the outside of the gland, you'll have to follow the procedure I described.

If item #3 fits in a groove on the inside of the barrell, you should be able to remove item #3 and then pull the rod and gland assy out.

Sorry for the confusion!

Mark

 

[wdchyd]

Pix..??

What nothing to look at before second guessing how it fix it..??

 

[JackDWaller]

Thanks very much for the recent posts, guys. They are most helpful, especially relative to getting the cylinder apart. If I do just that, I may need a comment regarding the second snap ring and that "special tool or ring" that was mentioned in an old post.

For now I have a small bearing endcap that is close to the right bore that I will resize. That will mate with a square block of steel that's getting machined this morning that will form the other half of the circumferential collar that will have the nipple fitted to it. With the paint removed and a close tolerance fit I am confident that I can get a good seal over the hole where the nipple broke free. Because this break is so close to the end I'm hoping that there is no distortion.

I don't have a good working camera but I'll try to get some pics and I'll report back on how the "milking of the cow" went. Thanks again - I sure felt sick yesterday with a $600 fixit looming before Christmas!

Jack

 

[wdchyd]

I'm mixed up, You mean that the hyd fitting broke off....??

 

[J_J]

I believe he said the cyl port extension and that is why he iswelding a new one on.


JackDWaller said:

I won't go into the gory details except to say that a chain hook snagged the hose attaching stud (rod end) and cleanly ripped it off.

 

[wdchyd]

OK, missed that......that's an easy fix......

 

[JackDWaller]

Here's the latest. BTW if it's an easy fix then please give the detail of how you would go about it.

I machined the collar and all that, bolted it on, and only one problem - a pin hole in my weld (was tricky welding without contacting thread on the nipple). So off it came and now it doesn't weld as well because of oil residue, and instead of being fixed it's now got a very tiny seapage at the base of the weld. Just enough to make a dirty mess in time. The seal to the cylinder is fine. A touch more welding ?? or maybe a touch of epoxy?? but no big deal other than I'm annoyed.

At least I now know that I won't have to spend the $600 or whatever an alternate ram would cost. There is definitely no damage to the cylinder, thankfully.

I'll still try to get a pic for those who are curious about what has been going on, and thanks to all.

Jack

 

[wdchyd]

Here's the latest. BTW if it's an easy fix then please give the detail of how you would go about it.

Jack,

I do this almost everyday of the week.....what seems unusual to most, is ordinary to us (me and two full timers)

You say "I machined the collar and all that, bolted it on,".....:confused2:..., I'd disassemble, clean, grind off old fitting, use new fitting (grind for fit up), weld it up, repack with new seal kit and test.....

'bout a hour and a half of work.....Done......Done right.....

Pix would always be helpfull when giving advice cuz I cannot see what you have to start with.....