3600 PTO question. Live? Independent?

[lorandroehl]

I have a 1978 Ford 3600 diesel with an 8x2 transmission. I have had this tractor for about 1 month and have used it only a little during that time. The PTO can be engaged by just moving the the control lever towards the rear without stepping in the clutch. The lever moves easily with no grinding. There is a little vibration in the lever when the PTO is engaged, but I would not call it grinding. With the tractor shut off the PTO shaft is easily turned with the PTO disengaged, but I can't turn it with the PTO engaged. Stepping in the clutch makes no difference. With the clutch stepped down all the way the PTO shaft is still not turnable by hand when the PTO is engaged. All the gears in the transmission work well with no grinding at all when shifting. Hi/Low shifting works well. I don't have a PTO driven implement just now to test this on. Hoping to buy a bush hog soon. Do I have an independent PTO? It seems so. My 3600 operators manual says a 3600 would have a transmission or live PTO, but that is not the way it acts. Or do I have a problem? Thanks in advance for the help.

 

[whodat526]

I have a 1978 Ford 3600 diesel with an 8x2 transmission. I have had this tractor for about 1 month and have used it only a little during that time. The PTO can be engaged by just moving the the control lever towards the rear without stepping in the clutch. The lever moves easily with no grinding. There is a little vibration in the lever when the PTO is engaged, but I would not call it grinding. With the tractor shut off the PTO shaft is easily turned with the PTO disengaged, but I can't turn it with the PTO engaged. Stepping in the clutch makes no difference. With the clutch stepped down all the way the PTO shaft is still not turnable by hand when the PTO is engaged. All the gears in the transmission work well with no grinding at all when shifting. Hi/Low shifting works well. I don't have a PTO driven implement just now to test this on. Hoping to buy a bush hog soon. Do I have an independent PTO? It seems so. My 3600 operators manual says a 3600 would have a transmission or live PTO, but that is not the way it acts. Or do I have a problem? Thanks in advance for the help.

the tractor has a 2 stage clutch that means with the clutch petal push half way down the tractor should stop moving and the pto keep spinning and with the clutch push all they way down the pto should stop spinning if it doesn't the clutch either needs to be adjusted or replaced

 

[Jerry/MT]

I have a 1978 Ford 3600 diesel with an 8x2 transmission. I have had this tractor for about 1 month and have used it only a little during that time. The PTO can be engaged by just moving the the control lever towards the rear without stepping in the clutch. The lever moves easily with no grinding. There is a little vibration in the lever when the PTO is engaged, but I would not call it grinding. With the tractor shut off the PTO shaft is easily turned with the PTO disengaged, but I can't turn it with the PTO engaged. Stepping in the clutch makes no difference. With the clutch stepped down all the way the PTO shaft is still not turnable by hand when the PTO is engaged. All the gears in the transmission work well with no grinding at all when shifting. Hi/Low shifting works well. I don't have a PTO driven implement just now to test this on. Hoping to buy a bush hog soon. Do I have an independent PTO? It seems so. My 3600 operators manual says a 3600 would have a transmission or live PTO, but that is not the way it acts. Or do I have a problem? Thanks in advance for the help.

It sounds to me like you have an independent pto. There is a clutch pack that connects/disconnects (via the pto lever)the engine to the pto shaft. You have the 8 (4x2)speed tranny so it's a later model. The early ones had a 6 speed(3x2) tanny. The Nebraska Test data sheet say it has a single plate clutch so you must have an independent pto.

 

[whodat526]

It sounds to me like you have an independent pto. There is a clutch pack that connects/disconnects (via the pto lever)the engine to the pto shaft. You have the 8 (4x2)speed tranny so it's a later model. The early ones had a 6 speed(3x2) tanny. The Nebraska Test data sheet say it has a single plate clutch so you must have an independent pto.

i didn't think any 3600's had a 6 speed trans that ended in the 3000 series tractors and there was never a hyd independent pto in a 3600 it has a 2 stage clutch

 

[Jerry/MT]

i didn't think any 3600's had a 6 speed trans that ended in the 3000 series tractors and there was never a hyd independent pto in a 3600 it has a 2 stage clutch

The Nebraska Test had test data for a 3600 with a 6 speed. Go look at the tractor test data from Nebraska with the 8 speed says it had a single plate clutch so it must have an independent pto. (sse bold type below)

NEBRASKA TRACTOR TEST 1221
POWER TAKE-OFF PERFORMANCE
FORD 3600 DIESEL, 8-SPEED
Department of Agricultural Engineering
Power Crank Fuel Consumption Temperature of (OC
lip shaft Air Air
(kW) speed Kal/hr Ib/hp.hr IIp.hr/gal CoolinK wet dn
rpm (I/h) (kK/kWh) (kWh/l) medium bulb bu(b
Barometer
inch 11K
(kPa)
Dates of Test: September 28 to October 9, 1976
MAXIMUM POWER AND FUEL CONSUMPTION
Rated Engine Speed-Two Hours (PTO Speed-597 rpm)
40.55 2000 2.666 0.460 15.21 203 61 75 28.820
(30.24) (10.092) (0.280) (2.996) (95.1) (16.2) (23.9) (97.321)
Standard Power Take-off Speed (540 rpm)-One Hour
38.31 1810 2.499 0.457 15.33 205 60 75 28.815
(28.57) (9.459) (0.278) (3.020) (96.3) (15.6) (23.9) (97.304)
VARYING POWER AND FUEL CONSUMPTION-Two Hours
36.51 2120 2.443 0.468 14.94 192 60 75
(27.22) (9.249) (0.285) (2.944) (88.6) (15.6) (23.9)
0.00 2258 0.827 168 60 76
(0.00) (3.132) (75.6) (15.6) (24.2)
18.91 2195 1.599 0.592 11.83 175 60 76
(14.10) (6.052) (0.360) (2.330) (79.4) (15.6) (24.2)
40.81 2000 2.683 0.460 15.21 200 60 76
(30.43) (10.157) (0.280) (2.996) (93.6) (15.6) (24.2)
9.60 2230 1.217 0.887 7.89 173 59 76
(7.16) (4.608) (0.540) (1.554) (78.3) (15.0) (24.2)
27.91 2160 2.019 0.506 13.82 180 60 76
(20.81) (7.642) (0.308) (2.723) (81.9) (15.3) (24.2)
Av 22.29 2160 1.798 0.565 12.40 181 60 75 28.823
Av (16.62) (6.807) (0.343) (2.442) (82.9) (15.4) (24.1) (97.332)
DRAWBAR PERFORMANCE
Power Drawbar Speed Crank- Slip Fuel Consumption Temp. of (OC)
Hp pull mph shaft ex gal/hr Iblhp.hr Hp.hrlgal Cool- Air Air Barom.
(kW) Ibs (km/h) speed (I/h) (kK/kWh) (kWh/I) ing wet dry inch Hg
(kIV) rpm med bulb bulb (kPa)
Maximum Available Power-Two Hours 4th Gear
33.71 2566 4.93 2000 5.64 2.608 0.541 12.93 172 44 55 29.230
(25.14) ( II.41) (7.93) (9.871) (0.329) (2.547) (77.8) (6.7) (12.5) (98.705)
75% of Pull at Maximum Power-Ten Hours 4th Gear
27.83 1928 5.41 2159 3.99 2.225 0.560 12.51 167 48 57 28.928
(20.75) (8.57) (8.71) (8.424) (0.340) (2.464) (75.1) (8.7) (14.1) (97.686)
50% of Pull at Maximum Power-Two Hours 4th Gear
19.24 1299 5.56 2192 2.95 1.857 0.676 10.36 159 38 46 29.290
(14.35) (5.78) (8.94) (7.031) (0.411) (2.041) (70.3) (3.1) (7.8) (98.908)
50% of Pull at Reduced Engine Speed-Two Hours 6th Gear
19.68 1325 5.57 1468 2.86 1.518 0.540 12.96 163 42 52 29.280
(14.67) (5.89) (8.96) (5.747) (0.328) (2.554) (72.5) (5.6) (Il.1) (98.874)
MAXIMUM POWER IN SELECTED GEARS
28.04 5277 1.99 2144 14.99 2nd Gear 169 44 55 29.200
(20.91) (23.47) (3.21) (76.1) (6.7) (12.8) (98.604)
32.94 3505 3.52 1999 8.11 3rd Gear 174 46 58 29.010
(24.56) (15.59) (5.67) (78.9) (7.8) (14.4) (97.962)
33.62 2563 4.92 1998 5.84 4th Gear 173 46 58 29.000
(25.07) (Il.40) (7.92) (78.3) (7.8) (14.4) (97.929)
34.10 2144 5.96 2000 4.81 5th Gear 173 46 58 29.010
(25.43) (9.54) (9.60) (78.3) (7.8) (14.4) (97.962)
33.41 1663 7.53 2000 3.64 6th Gear 174 46 58 29.020
(24.92) (7.40) (12.12) (78.6) (7.8) (14.4) (97.996)
30.90 862 13.44 1998 1.82 7th Gear 167 46 58 29.020
(23.04) (3.84) (21.63) (75.0) (7.8) (14.4) (97.996)
LUGGING ABILITY IN RATED GEAR (4th)
Crankshaft Speed rpm 1998 1798 1596 1404 1198 1001
Pull-lbs 2563 2701 2793 2859 2904 2875
(k1V) (1l.40) (12.02) (12.42) (12.72) (12.92) (12.79)
Increase in Pull % 0 5 9 12 13 12
Power-Hp 33.62 31.75 29.09 26.13 22.60 18.71
(kW) (25.07) (23.68) (21.69) (19.48) (16.85) (13.95)
Speed-Mph 4.92 4.41 3.91 3.43 2.92 2.44
(km/h) (7.92) (7.09) (6.29) (5.52) (4.70) (3.93)
Slip % 5.84 6.18 6.40 6.63 6.85 6.74
Manufacturer: FORD MOTOR COMPANY,
Tractor Operations, 2500 East Maple Rd., Troy,
Michigan 48084
FUEL, OIL AND TIME: Fuel No.2 Diesel
Cetane No. 51.8 (rating taken from oil company's
typical inspection data) Specific gravity converted
to 60ｰ/60ｰ (15.6ｰ/15.6ｰ) 0.8406 Fuel weight 6.999
lbs/gal (0.841 kg/1) Oil SAE 30 API service
classification SB/SE-CAlCD To motor 1.446 gal
(5.474 1) Drained from motor 1.257 gal (4.758 1)
Transmission and final drive lubricant Ford
M-2C53A Total time engine was operated 43
hours
ENGINE Make Ford Diesel Type 3 cylinder
vertical Serial No. *C096165* Crankshaft
lengthwise Rated rpm 2000 Bore and stroke 4.2"
x 4.2" (106.68 mm x 106.68 mm) Compression
ratio 16.3 to 1 Displacement 175 cu in (2861 ml)
Cranking system 12 volt Lubrication pressure
Air cleaner paper and felt elements with dust
evacuator Oil filter full flow cotton blend spin-on
cartridge Oil cooler radiator for hydraulic oil
Fuel filter nylon gauze in bottom of tank and
paper element Muffler vertical Cooling medium
temperature control thermostat
CHASSIS: Type standard Serial No.
*C510279* Tread width rear 52"(1320 mm) to 76"
(1930 mm) front 52" (1320 mm) to 80" (2030 mm)
Wheel base 75.8" (1925 mm) Center of gravity
(without operator or ballast, with minimum tread,
with fuel tank filled and tractor serviced for operation)
Horizontal distance forward from centerline
of rear wheels 26.3" (668 mm) Vertical distance
above roadway 34.5" (876 mm) Horizontal distance
from center of rear wheel tread 0.06" (2 mm) to the
left Hydraulic control system direct engine
drive Transmission selective gear fixed ratio
Advertised speeds mph (km/h) first 1.6 (2.6) second
2.0 (3.2) third 3.6 (5.8) fourth 4.8 (7.7) fifth
5.8 (9.3) sixth 7.2 (11.6) seventh 12.8 (20.6) eighth
17.4 (28.0) reverse 2.4 (3.9), 8.4 (13.5) Clutch
single plate dry disc operated by foot pedal
Brakes internal shoe operated by two foot pedals
which can be locked together Steering power assist
Turning radius (on concrete surface with
brake applied) right 117" (2.97 m) left 117" (2.97
m) (on concrete surface without brake) right 129"
(3.28 m) left 129" (3.28 m) Turning space diameter
(on concrete surface with brake applied) right
240" (6.10 m) left 240" (6.10 m) (on concrete surface
without brake) right 267" (6.78 m) left 267"
(6.78 m) Belt pulley 1113 rpm at 2000 engine
rpm diameter 10.25" (260 mm) face 6.5" (165 mm)
Belt speed 2987 fpm (15.2 m/s) Power take-off
540 rpm at 1810 engine rpm.
REPAIRS and ADJUSTMENTS: No repairs or
adjustments.

 

[JC-jetro]

It certainly sounds an independent pto. The activation of wet clutch pack is mechanical rather than electrical. If you follow the linkage from the pto engaging mechanism it has to end up with manipulation of some hydraulic valve. The valve in turn provide hyd pressure to engage the clutch pack. In lieu of the linkage you can have a switch that opens a normally closed solenoid valve proving hyd pressure for the clutch pack. The clutch pack is usually i the rear diify. You have two input shaft, one solid and one hollow. one for the single clutch and the other directly splined to crankshaft/flywheel at all times that couples with the clutch pack in the diffy, hence independent.

JC,

 

[RickB]

A 3600 with a 6 speed transmission will always have a single disc clutch. And that PTO will be transmission driven, not independent. You will not find a 3600 with independent PTO, only 8 speed models with live PTO, or other configurations with transmission PTO. The smallest X600 series tractor with independent PTO would be the 4600, or if you want to pick nits, the 4100 that was offered at the same time.

 

[JC-jetro]

A 3600 with a 6 speed transmission will always have a single disc clutch. And that PTO will be transmission driven, not independent. You will not find a 3600 with independent PTO, only 8 speed models with live PTO, or other configurations with transmission PTO. The smallest X600 series tractor with independent PTO would be the 4600, or if you want to pick nits, the 4100 that was offered at the same time.

Rick,

Op stated that clutch pedal fully engaged makes no difference with PTO rotation. How is that possible with transmission driven pto? something does not add up.

JC,

 

[RickB]

Rick,

Op stated that clutch pedal fully engaged makes no difference with PTO rotation. How is that possible with transmission driven pto? something does not add up.

JC,

It isn't a transmission driven PTO. It is an 8x2 with a two stage clutch that has an inoperable second (PTO) stage. Symptoms are common and ordinary.
Gotta read what is posted carefully before hitting the keyboard.
Everyone was drifting off into how a single disc clutch turned a 3600 into a tractor with independent PTO. Not true, and the OP doesn't have a 6 speed or single disc clutch to begin with. It is a typical 3600 with a double clutch that is toast.

Whodat526 had this nailed in post #2.

 

[JC-jetro]

It isn't a transmission driven PTO. It is an 8x2 with a two stage clutch that has an inoperable second (PTO) stage. Symptoms are common and ordinary.
Gotta read what is posted carefully before hitting the keyboard.
Everyone was drifting off into how a single disc clutch turned a 3600 into a tractor with independent PTO. Not true, and the OP doesn't have a 6 speed or single disc clutch to begin with. It is a typical 3600 with a double clutch that is toast.

Whodat526 had this nailed in post #2.

Agreed. I actually checked tractor data for 3600 and all they say the pto turns at 540 and nothing about pto type. So the pto clutch is fused tp flywheel and or the release fork can't operates second stage. Could it corrected by adjustment short of riding the pressure plate finger?

Jc,

TractorData.com Ford 3600 tractor information

 

[lorandroehl]

Thanks for the replies. Sounds like this is a 2 stage clutch with the PTO stage not functioning properly. I did speak with somebody in the service department at a New Holland dealership today and described the problem. He told me sometimes the PTO clutch will "hang up" and act like this. He suggested I hook up a PTO driven implement like a rotary cutter, run this for a while, and this may "knock loose" the PTO clutch. Has anybody done this? I suppose it can't hurt, but is it likely to help? If it is an adjustment problem what type of adjustment is needed? Again thanks for the replies. I have a feeling the PTO clutch has seen its better days and I am headed for a new one.

 

[Soundguy]

I'd adjust freeplay to minum setting.. or maybee a hair under, then see what I had.

pto section may be froze up.. or clutch may be worn out of adjustment so there is not enough trow to seperate..e tc.

might put a pto load on it, block cluthc a day, set in seat, and useing a remote starter button , bump engine over a few times.

tranny in neutral of course.

if it is simply stuck.. that might pop it loose.. otherwise.... splitzy

 

[Jerry/MT]

A 3600 with a 6 speed transmission will always have a single disc clutch. And that PTO will be transmission driven, not independent. You will not find a 3600 with independent PTO, only 8 speed models with live PTO, or other configurations with transmission PTO. The smallest X600 series tractor with independent PTO would be the 4600, or if you want to pick nits, the 4100 that was offered at the same time.

Rick, the exerpt from the Nebraska Test is for a 3600 with 8 speed tranny and it says it has a single plate clutch. I guess it must be a transmission driven pto then or the report is incorrect.

And the original post said the pto can be engaged without using the clutch. If the clutch is toast, how can the pto transmit power? Not trying to pick a fight, I'm just trying to understand.

 

[JC-jetro]

Rick, the exerpt from the Nebraska Test is for a 3600 with 8 speed tranny and it has a single plate clutch. I guess it must be a transmission driven pto then,huh. I'm surprised they wer eeven making tranny driven pto's at that late date (OCTOBER, 1976).

Many new tractor today including TC-30, T1520 offer transmission driven pto as the simplest form of power transfer to the rear.

 

[Soundguy]

8spd twin stick would be a dual clutch on a 3xxx like that.. or independent if the 4xxx

everything I have in manuals backs that up.

would like to see a resource that says otherwise..

i've seen plenty of odd things mind ya.. so not ruling naything out.. but....

 

[whodat526]

8spd twin stick would be a dual clutch on a 3xxx like that.. or independent if the 4xxx

everything I have in manuals backs that up.

would like to see a resource that says otherwise..

i've seen plenty of odd things mind ya.. so not ruling naything out.. but....

your right all 3cyl 8sp dry drum breaks equals two stage clutch and 3cyl 8sp with wet breaks equals hyd clutch pack

 

[RickB]

Rick, the exerpt from the Nebraska Test is for a 3600 with 8 speed tranny and it says it has a single plate clutch. I guess it must be a transmission driven pto then or the report is incorrect.

And the original post said the pto can be engaged without using the clutch. If the clutch is toast, how can the pto transmit power? Not trying to pick a fight, I'm just trying to understand.

Double clutch 3 cylinder Fords ALL came with 8 speed transmissions behind them. I didn't say ALL 8 speed transmissions had double clutches in front of them; most, but not all did. There are (a few) 2000's and 3000's out there with 8 speed trannys and single disc clutches for sure, and there are model codes for that configuration. There may be model codes for 2600's and 3600's set up the same way, but I don't know for certain and don't have a resource here at home that I trust enough to refer to.

 

[jimmysisson]

The PTO can be engaged by just moving the the control lever towards the rear without stepping in the clutch. The lever moves easily with no grinding. There is a little vibration in the lever when the PTO is engaged, but I would not call it grinding. With the tractor shut off the PTO shaft is easily turned with the PTO disengaged, but I can't turn it with the PTO engaged. Stepping in the clutch makes no difference. With the clutch stepped down all the way the PTO shaft is still not turnable by hand when the PTO is engaged.

I'm still confused. If the pto clutch is stuck to the flywheel, why does the OP get no grinding when engaging the pto? Gears worn off to nubs (a little vibration)? But can't turn PTO with the engine off, and PTO engaged?
OP, you'll need some kind of load on the PTO to figure out the problem. Know anyone with a brush hog or tiller?
Jim

 

[RickB]

I'm still confused. If the pto clutch is stuck to the flywheel, why does the OP get no grinding when engaging the pto? Gears worn off to nubs (a little vibration)? But can't turn PTO with the engine off, and PTO engaged?
OP, you'll need some kind of load on the PTO to figure out the problem. Know anyone with a brush hog or tiller?
Jim

That's it.

With no implement attached to the PTO, the shift collar doesn't grind against the PTO shaft, it grabs a spline and engages immediately because there is no inertial load (to speak of) to get turning. Attach a chipper or rotary cutter to that PTO shaft and the OP would hear plenty of grinding and probably wouldn't be able to engage it at all with the tractor running.

 

[lorandroehl]

Problem solved. I decided to to do some adjusting and see what happens. What could go wrong? I turned the linkage rod in about 3/8-1/2 inch and voila the 2 stage clutch now functions properly. I have not attached a PTO driven implement yet so that will be the next test, but for now it seems things work correctly. I guess it may need some additional fine adjustment but it doesn't look like a split for now. Thanks again for the help.