Need advice on buying welder(s)

[Sublifer]

I need to get some new welding equipment. I have an el cheapo HF FC mig. Built my tractor canopy with it. I have done stick only a few times when people were showing me how to do it. I have no OA or other welding experience.

I had been thinking about one of those Everlast PowerPro multiprocess machines, maybe the 205, but I never saw anyone review them. I've been watching the welding forums for a while trying to gather ideas and advice but I think its time for me to just ask for help and opinions.

My next welding project will involve cutting and welding up to 1/2" carbon steel to build some tools and implements. I will need to weld some sheet as well on different projects. My FC mig isn't good for much... I can't do anything thicker than 1/8 but it won't do thin sheet either cuz it tends to blow holes through it. In the not too distant future I'd like to be able to weld aluminum too, maybe as much as 1/4" thick but I can't picture any thicker.

Here are my thoughts on the different processes.
-Stick: cheap, quick setup and relatively easy but also messy.
-Tig: clean but slow welds, gas makes it less portable and more complex
-FC mig: quick setup and very easy, moderately messy, can't do thin gauge
-Gas mig: clean, relatively easy, gas bottles = less portable and more complex
-OA: what everyone should start with even though I haven't. Cuts, can braze and weld but I probably wouldn't. Gas bottles again. Can warp projects.
-Plasma: quick and easy cuts but very expensive

Now of all the characteristics of the different processes, I think clean welds is probably among the top. More than half my time building my canopy was in cleaning up spatter. Yargh! I have a 5500 watt generator that I might have to use for power. No 220 outlets in the garage except for the generator but I suppose I could get it if I needed it. I am a very quick learner and do work with my hands a lot so I really like the idea of tig even though I've heard there is a learning curve.

Money is not unlimited... I'd probably cap at 1800 but would rather spend ~900.

So lets have it, what do you guys think?

 

[IslandTractor]

With 1/2 inch steel on your list of materials to weld you would certainly want a 220V machine. With sheet metal you'd ideally have either O/A or tig. As you note stick is a bit messier or harder to master than MIG/FC but there are quite a number of stick/tig machines available. I have a Miller Maxstar STH which is a dual voltage portable inverter based stick welder and does steel tig too. Expensive new but available used (I got mine for about $800 in good condition via ebay). As you note, there are some imported Chinese machines that also do stick/tig and I would imagine they do a good job. Even HF has a nice 220V tig unit for pretty cheap money on sale.

I prefer O/A for simple sheet metal jobs as it seems to be quicker for me than setting up tig with gases etc. I find it easiest to control as well. Tig welds are prettier though.

Your 5500w generator is enough power to run either a tombstone ac/dc 220V machine or something like my inverter Maxstar that would be adequate for the 1/2 inch steel assuming you are doing some prep.

I'd invest in a small but not tiny O/A setup with maybe a B acetylene tank and some low end torches from a decent manufacturer. That gives you flexibility with sheet metal and some cutting and brazing capability. You could then add either a Lincoln ac/dc tombstone for about $200 used or splurge on a dual voltage inverter based stick/tig ($400-1500) for heavier steel. Your FC machine could fill the gap for 14g to 1/4 inch.

If you can stretch your budget, pick up a used oxyfuel set up off Craigslist ($300-400 complete) and then splurge on something like a Miller 252 for $2K which I think will run at max with your generator (you should check the max amp draw though as I think a 5500w generator only puts out about 27-28amps at 220V. I also have a Miller Passport which is not rated quite as high as the 251 but it doesn't exceed the output of the generator (I have the same size generator). You can get the same basic capability of the Miller 251 or 180 with one of the better Chinese welders for a lot less money obviously and although I don't own one I'd feel pretty comfortable buying one as far as reliability etc is concerned.

Edit: Just checked the Miller specs on the Millermatic 252. It draws max 42 amps at 240v to achieve single pass 1/2 steel welding. Sounds like that is too much. The 211, 212 or 180 would be OK though but you'd definitely need to multipass the 1/2 inch stuff.

 

[Mark @ Everlast]

I would not recommend the PowerPro for an average customer.

It sounds like a good I MIG 200 might be up your alley. Can get them for well less than 900.00 and they will weld stick, and with a small tig torch rig, you can do some DC scratch start TIG with them.

Ohh..yeah, dual voltage now as well... and will manage pretty well on 5500 watt generator (if its a clean power one). Around 140A on 110V though. 200 just isn't mathematically possible.

 

[Sublifer]

Thats a lot of models to look at and good information. I'll have to spend some time looking up those models and digest it. Thanks for the quick responses!

 

[Sublifer]

Okay, so it looks like both of you recommend a MIG setup. I looked at that millermatic 252. Yea, that'd be nice to single pass on 1/2" steel but deff out of my price range. It'd draw more power than my gen could provide also but I could get 220 installed in the garage... anywho. So far it looks like a 200amp mig (maybe with stick capability or separate stick unit) and an OA rig.

200amp mig is good for about 3/8" single pass right? I don't mind beveling edges, I already have 3 angle grinders

What can you do on single pass stick with 160 amps or 200 amps?

 

[IslandTractor]

The Miller 212 draws a max of 27 amps at 230V which is right at the peak output for a 5500W generator. It handles 22g sheet metal to 3/8" steel in single pass per Miller spec sheet.

The Miller Passport is a suitcase portable inverter based machine so is more efficient. It draws a max of 18A at 230V to get almost the same max output (but lower duty cycle) and is rated from 24g to 3/8" single pass.

The Miller 211 is a dual voltage machine that draws 24amps at 230V for exactly the same welding power and range as the Passport. Less expensive than the Passport and not quite as capable with 110V as it is not inverter based.

Cyberweld is a good place to check pricing on the Millers. The Passport plus is about $1600 and the 211 about $1000. No question you can save money with the Everlast for similar features/output. The PowerImig200 at about $800 would be about the most you could run off your generator and it has similar performance to the Miller 211 and Passport. While the PowerIMig also has stick features, I personally would pay the extra $200 to get the Miller 211. Nothing against the Everlasts in terms of capability but Miller products are going to be more easily supported and retain value much better. Who knows how long Everlast will be around as even though they seem to be doing well they are a very small mostly marketing company compared to Miller.

I own the Miller Passport and it is a very nice machine with a great arc. Very nice to have dual voltage capability as there are times when you don't need to run the generator (most times actually as up to 1/4 inch steel is no problem with 110V with an inverter MIG). They are pricey (again I got mine as a demo) but they have the advantage of being very portable and flexible compared to anything else. It also allows you to do true MIG rather than FC in the field as it contains an internal paintball C02 cartridge which is enough for something like 20 minutes or 15feet of weld. There are also connectors for an external tank. Very handy to be able to literally throw it into the back of the car too. Tough little bugger.

 

[jimcolt]

I have a couple of Mig welders in my shop.....an older Millermatic 250 (bought it on Craigslist for $400, works great) and a Hobart Handler 210 (bought at Tractor Supply for $799).

The handler has a lower duty cycle....but is capable of doing a decent weld on 1/2" plate...in the right hands, and does a great job on 3/8". Switch it over to a spool of .023" solid wire (use gas) and with a little experience you can do a decent job stitching sheet metal at low power. I understand that the newer versions have dual input voltage capability....and come with a spool gun for a little more money. In my opinion this is a great homeowner machine and is backed up by Hobart.....not an importer operating from a warehouse.

I use the Miller for heavier high duty cycle jobs.....but I mentioned it because if you are patient and watch Craigslist....and know what you are looking for there are deals to be had on welders.

For plasma....if you want a dual voltage unit look at the Powermax30 from Hypertherm....the list price is around $1200, but search around and you will find new ones for less. There are about 25,000 of them in the field....so used ones pop up frequently. This unit can cut 1/4" very well, and can sever 1/2" ....but I would not recommend it for regular work on 1/2".

For a used Hypertherm....watch for the Powermax600. It is a 230 volt machine.....will handle 1/2" and thicker very well...and you can often find them used for $600 to $800.

These units I mention are from major companies that will be around to back them up forever. The designs are long term.....do not get changed often, and there is free tech service and a wide range of distributors to get parts and offer advice. These products will e someday inherited by your kids...and probably won't end up in a scrap bin for 50 or more years!


Jim Colt

 

[Mark @ Everlast]

As a rule, a smaller well made weld is preferred than one large massive one...In the real world, multiple passes are required on thick materials.

Duty cycle does play a role in welding, especially mig.

With the IMIG 200, I have easily welded 22 gauge with .030 wire. Using the arc force control (inductance) feature, it allows you much greater control of the arc. Lower end, smaller transformer units will not have this feature, plus they weigh a lot more. The lightweight inverter power unit of the Everlast I MIG 200 is much more efficient and does not require as much power to run. It offers much more flexability, and better duty cycles. The arc force control makes a huge difference, especially in out of position welds(when ever you aren't welding with the weld running flat in front of you) or with the aforementioned thin gauges. If you never had it, you probably don't know what a valuable tool this is. Spatter can be tuned out as well to be non existent.

Here is a weld on 1/4" I made with an older I MIG 160, using .030 wire. I used it to weld to some tubing that I used to make a hinge on a barbque smoker (which I sold yesterday for a nice $2350 btw).

 

[jgrieve]

one option might be finding a good deal on a an old stick welder for heavy stuff and a 110 volt mig wire welder for light stuff. The mig welder uses shielding gas and welds way nicer than flux cored wire welder. I bought an Old lincon ac stick welder for 35 bucks its a good old machine, weighs about a ton. ac/dc would be better, smoother and welds thinner metal but more money. Ps I never actually got around to buying a wire welder. One thing about wire, it rusts if you have a damp shop. If the wire rusts you throw away the spool.

 

[monckywrench]

You can switch stick electrodes in seconds and stock a wide variety conveniently.

The "small MIG for sheet, stick for the rest" is common for good reason.

 

[Sublifer]

Mark, would the 160amp on stick with the iMig200 be sufficient for 1/2" mild steel? I think even 200 amp I'd have to bevel edges... Maybe I should just start with a stick unit.. much as I'd rather do mig or tig...
I looked at some torch sets. Seems you can get a medium duty set for ~200 or a heavy duty set for ~350. Add tanks and I'd be near the cost of a Everlast plasma cutter.

 

[IslandTractor]

Mark, would the 160amp on stick with the iMig200 be sufficient for 1/2" mild steel? I think even 200 amp I'd have to bevel edges... Maybe I should just start with a stick unit.. much as I'd rather do mig or tig...
I looked at some torch sets. Seems you can get a medium duty set for ~200 or a heavy duty set for ~350. Add tanks and I'd be near the cost of a Everlast plasma cutter.

An Oxyfuel setup can be had used off Craigslist for about 300-400 bucks complete. A cheap plasma cutter is about $600-700. Different tools really. For cutting, except in the field, plasma is almost always better though you are more limited in the thickness you can cut. The utility of an oxyfuel set up is the ability to weld, cut and braze with the same setup and without need for electricity.

If you are just interested in welding and cutting 1/2 steel most efficiently, you really are going to need to increase your budget and power supply. If you will do those things only occasionally then beveling before welding and severing rather than precise cutting with a sub $1500 plasma cutter is what you will need to compromise on. I'm not so sure that a limit cut with a plasma cutter is going to be any cleaner than with acetylene or propane. Maybe a bit cleaner but not the precise cuts that we all marvel at when thinking about a plasma cutter. Besides more $$$ you need more power to get a clean cut on 1/2 steel with a plasma cutter. The Everlast 50 which is possibly powerful enough (right at the edge) requires 35amps at 220 to get that 1/2 inch cut. Your 5500W generator only puts out in the 27amp range which would not be enough.

Edit: correction. 5500watt generator puts out 25 amps max at 220v so clearly cannot power a quality 1/2" cut.

 

[Sublifer]

I would probably run a plasma cutter off of shop 220 rather than the generator. At least until I ever got a bigger generator lol. But yes, that would limit work in the field but I can't think how much I'd ever want to go out in the middle of no where to cut steel either.

 

[IslandTractor]

I would probably run a plasma cutter off of shop 220 rather than the generator. At least until I ever got a bigger generator lol. But yes, that would limit work in the field but I can't think how much I'd ever want to go out in the middle of no where to cut steel either.

Yep. You'd need a 50amp 220v circuit or minimum 8000watt generator. Or, a simple oxyfuel torch, maybe propane for cutting. That propane setup would be very inexpensive and flexible.

 

[Sublifer]

Not sure I've heard of propane for cutting before. Do you have a link to a rig for that?

 

[rockinmywaypa]

Never buy new if you aren't in business for welding. Watch for any and all places where there are ads. I have recently added a mig to complete my lineup. I have my old lincoln tombstone, an AC/DC with tig scratch start, a gas powered canox and now a lincoln mig. All used but not abused and I still am under 800 bucks. These will be used here on the farm and will be passed on to my son who will use them likely for another 20 or 30 yrs after I die. I have watched kijiji, the local radio has a dial a deal and then there are actual mags that deal strickly in classified ads. Keep your eyes open and be patient but ready to pounce.

 

[rockinmywaypa]

I forgot about the propane, which I also use. You replace the tip on your cutting torch so it mixes right and normally you're good to go. threads on the tanks are same left hand thread but I've heard that the hoses have to be compatible with propane. You cant use your small tips that you'd normally bronze with but I just use my cutting torch and set it to low heat and finesse my way through whatever it is. I'm only doing stuff for myself so it doesn't have to be pretty, just strong and functional.

 

[IslandTractor]

Not sure I've heard of propane for cutting before. Do you have a link to a rig for that?

Google it. Lots written. As noted above, the equipment is essentially the same except for the cutting tip and different hoses. I imagine it would add another $75 to the cost of a used oxyacetylene setup. You use the same oxygen tank but substitute a standard BBQ propane tank for the acetylene. Saves big bucks on gas if you do much cutting. For just occasional cuts it probably makes sense to use the acetylene if you already have it. Propane cutting is very popular for cutting scrap and has the other advantage that when you run out of gas on a weekend you just go get another 20lb tank at the gas station or Home Depot.

Cuts as effectively as acetylene but uses slightly different technique as the hottest part of the flame is not near the tip.

 

[Sublifer]

I was out of the house earlier. I'll google it. Is acetylene that much more expensive than propane?

 

[IslandTractor]

I was out of the house earlier. I'll google it. Is acetylene that much more expensive than propane?

About three or four times as expensive. Still, if you are only doing occasional oxyfuel cutting, it might make sense to stick with acetylene. I did check on the price of the propane cutting tip which is only about $15 and the "all fuel" hoses cost about $30.