Global Warming?

[SPYDERLK]

Far from empty promises in many cases. ... Regardless of failures, do you realize that sunlight delivers 1100 watts per square meter on earths surface ... ~1.5 MegaWatts per acre? We can electrically harvest about 10% of that with current tech -- 150KW. Thats 600KW-Hrs just from the 4hrs of high sun on a single sunny day. My entire farm uses about 150 KW-Hrs per day in peak season. ... So, regardless of failures, the conservative [efficiencies are rising due technology] potential is huge, and the benefit awaits application of credible known science. Change is almost always initially expensive. Even so, proactive change will ultimately turn out to be cheap in comparison to reactive change. Well directed subsidies are the best bet to get this going. The bad ones will fall out. Solar isnt one of them.
...The problem is not that it wont work - its that our system is not set up to use it. And that is a tremendous hurdle. Subsidies in selected areas are needed to catalyze the advance in infrastucture and technology. No single company can afford it. Both research and grunt work is needed. The engines of research have lost funding. Research is what got us from the $400+ HewlettPackard twenty something calculator of the '60s, to todays more capable $20 calculator that runs on ambient light. ... Solar is expensive now. -- Trouble is , ignoring it will keep it that way.
...larry

This is where I get confused. Nobody is saying that you shouldn't look for other sources of power. That is both misleading and dishonest. I'm all for solar, wind and alge. But I'm not for giving away hundreds of millions of tax payer money to companies to see if they can make it work. I'm especially not for giving them money when they already have a history of failure and a product that does not work and is available from other sources for less money.

At what point do you say it's time to stop throwing away money at something that isn't even a problem. There is no oil shortage. The energy crisis is self created by our governments refusal to allow big oil to do what they do best. Why do you want to blame the company that is supplying you with oil for creating the shortage when their only purpose in existing is to make a profit by selling oil and oil products?

Who is making it harder to get oil? Why are they making it more difficult to get oil? And the biggest mystery is why do you defend Obama when he has done so much to cause the energy crisis and absolutely nothing to fix it?

We are in debt so far that our lifestyle is now being affected by goverenment spending. Super Inflation is the next step. The answer Obama has is to spend more and raise taxes. Next year, Jan 1st, all our taxes are going up big time. It's designed to happen after the election and it's going to hurt. What will happen with the additional income? Will they just spend more money or will we find more ways to not pay taxes? Loop Holes or just not working as much?

If Solar is a good thing, then let those selling it put their money into it. Let them develop it and make it happen. Give them tax breaks and tax insentives, but do not give them CASH!!!!!

Government is not here to gamble with tax dollars on pet projects.

Eddie

Larry you are free to invest all you want. I have a problem with government getting involved because of the cronnie capitalism that has been there for years. Waste and fraud abound everyone promises to fix it and no one does. If we task the government with more we just invite it to be bigger with more waste and fraud.
If you really want to see more investment in Solar organize a group so you can more money to invest as the group sees fit. No doubt you will get far more result than Uncle Sam:thumbsup:

I really thot I had covered these things. There is no way people are going to unite privately to the extent needed to finance and coordinate the changes necessary to the public/govt/private system. Research has been squeezed in this country. This was short sighted and will ultimately kill us. Everything made overseas is a warning. Behavior of the petroleum market is another. Our huge deficit is the wars. Hopefully that will phase out and the streamline of the military will save money too. Included in that is an initiative to push the limits of technology for battlefield and soldier equipment. Inherent in this initiative is a huge subsidy for progress. There are many things being done that have a good chance of coming together fruitfully. The ability to blend natural varying power sources with efficiently controllable cogeneration is being done effectively and will continue to improve. Altho catalyzed by it, this development is a benefit to power plant efficiency even if there is not an unpredictable variable source that requires adaptive supplementation. Since this hasnt failed it is not noteworthy. There will surely be other failures/setbacks on the way, but ultimately things will self sustain and everyone will benefit from the advances. Hard to know the degree, but considering the huge source of solar energy, it alone is worth it without even considering the technological advances along the way.
...larry

 

[EddieWalker]

Really? War is the cause of the deficit? What war did Clinton fight when he had a deficit?

Could the reason research money is drying up is because those getting it are spending more with less results? Spending more on themselves and not accomplishing anything?

Look at the money that goes to a University and how they never have enough, but the professors make huge six figure saleries. Why do so many worry what a business makes, but ignores what public servants make?

Solar may be the answer, or maybe alge is. Until it is, why should we gamble on a fantasy that may or may not happen? Why do those who want to believe these things so strongly want to spend other peoples money on it, but never their own?

Eddie

 

[Johnp33]

The right is all about having a rant of the day, everything is used, when Solyndra failed it was Obama's fault, they got 1/2 billion, the oil companies get 40 where is all the outrage.
There are more drilling rigs operating in the US today than there ever was, more land is open for exploration than there ever was.
The right ranted about how the gulf was so important and when it was opened up, and there was an accident, it was Obama's fault.
911 happened who's fault?
I know how to stop a lot of the speculation on oil prices, get congress to pass a law that say one a week at a computer generated time all trades are final and everyone that has an oil contract must except shipment of that oil.
The example of the big Chaney girl was about how the rant was so viral for months about the underwear bomber being tried in a civil court, and how he would get off, well he did not get off, he got life. Was that ever mentioned?

 

[mostly_gas]

John, all your post was just as much rant if not more. Try actually explaining yourself well enough so you mack sense. Solyndra was given 1/2 billion from th US treasury in the form of loans. BTW, I doubt anybody else would have made those loans. So how did the BIG OIL get 40?

 

[mostly_gas]

I really thot I had covered these things. There is no way people are going to unite privately to the extent needed to finance and coordinate the changes necessary to the public/govt/private system. Research has been squeezed in this country.
...larry

I have seen estimates as high as 25% of Medicare/Medicaid fraud, has that been dealt with? As long as government funds shrimp on a treadmill and earmarks I don't see how the research will be guided in an effective manor. You lack of response to that point may mean that you don't know either, if you do I am all ears. People have learned how to get money out of the government with nothing to show for it. I agree there needs to be research, but I disagree that government funded research will accomplish much, othe than too wast more money.

 

[Johnp33]

John, all your post was just as much rant if not more. Try actually explaining yourself well enough so you mack sense. Solyndra was given 1/2 billion from th US treasury in the form of loans. BTW, I doubt anybody else would have made those loans. So how did the BIG OIL get 40?

They get a 40 billion dollar subsidy every year,and have for a long time. Solyndra was on a list of companies the Republicans wanted to be helped, I am sure the Democrats will not make that mistake again.
I am real sorry about how I write a response, I am a mechanic and not some fancy paid drone for a group, with all the fancy links to some other fancy drone that says something, to make people think it is a fact when you just get it out of? Or do you get the rant of the day directly from Frank.
Never answer a question, complain about the spelling, grammar, typing skills, just fog up the situation. Is that close enough to franks directive?

 

[EddieWalker]

The right is all about having a rant of the day, everything is used, when Solyndra failed it was Obama's fault, they got 1/2 billion, the oil companies get 40 where is all the outrage.
There are more drilling rigs operating in the US today than there ever was, more land is open for exploration than there ever was.
The right ranted about how the gulf was so important and when it was opened up, and there was an accident, it was Obama's fault.
911 happened who's fault?
I know how to stop a lot of the speculation on oil prices, get congress to pass a law that say one a week at a computer generated time all trades are final and everyone that has an oil contract must except shipment of that oil.
The example of the big Chaney girl was about how the rant was so viral for months about the underwear bomber being tried in a civil court, and how he would get off, well he did not get off, he got life. Was that ever mentioned?

The more you post, the more it seems that you are either drunk or out of your mind. When did the oil company get 40 billion dollars?

Your comment about more oil wells is meaningless since it doesn't refrence anything. How many more and how much more is needed? Are we more or less dependent on forign oil? Do we have enough oil here to be self sufficient if we drilled what he have available?

I believe the news was very good on the coverage of the Underwear Bomber, except for the fact that he was a terrorist and that he was from the middle east with ties to other terrorist. They sort of ignored that little tidbit.

Who cares what one commentator said? Are the news stations supposed to report what every commentator said?

Eddie

 

[hosspuller]

They get a 40 billion dollar subsidy every year,and have for a long time. Solyndra was on a list of companies the Republicans wanted to be helped, I am sure the Democrats will not make that mistake again.
I am real sorry about how I write a response, I am a mechanic and not some fancy paid drone for a group, with all the fancy links to some other fancy drone that says something, to make people think it is a fact when you just get it out of? Or do you get the rant of the day directly from Frank.
Never answer a question, complain about the spelling, grammar, typing skills, just fog up the situation. Is that close enough to franks directive?

I can't sit by and see statements go by without challenge. That's the "Big Lie" principle ...

Where, who, and what Oil companies get 40 billion in subsidy that is not available to any other company. That is the key... Everybody in the USA is eligble to get a subsidy ... It's called a mortgage interest deduction. Is it unfair ... only if you don't get it !!! So what is the special subsidy the oil companies get that no other company gets???

Then the Solyndra statement You say the Republicans wanted Solyndra to be helped ... I've read that the Bush admin turned Solyndra down. Again... Who, What and Where ??? Otherwise it's a big lie to me...

A good mechanic is logical in problem solving ... be a good mechanic not a mouth piece.

 

[JDGREEN4ME]

I don't know any more or less than most of the other posters on here. I do know that the millions of tons of pollutants we pump into the atmosphere every year must be screwing something up! Not saying it causes "global warming" just saying you would have to be an idiot if you didn't think it was doing something however.

 

[Egon]

ust saying you would have to be an idiot if you didn't think it was doing something however./QUOTE]

Acid rain and what does acid rain do? It makes lakes and rivers nice and clear!:laughing:

 

[mostly_gas]

They get a 40 billion dollar subsidy every year,and have for a long time. Solyndra was on a list of companies the Republicans wanted to be helped, I am sure the Democrats will not make that mistake again.
I am real sorry about how I write a response, I am a mechanic and not some fancy paid drone for a group, with all the fancy links to some other fancy drone that says something, to make people think it is a fact when you just get it out of? Or do you get the rant of the day directly from Frank.
Never answer a question, complain about the spelling, grammar, typing skills, just fog up the situation. Is that close enough to franks directive?

No, how are they subsidized get specific
Republicans had already decided Solyndra was a lost cause, they had more than enough time to set up a loan before Bush left office but did not.

 

[SPYDERLK]

Really? War is the cause of the deficit? What war did Clinton fight when he had a deficit?

Could the reason research money is drying up is because those getting it are spending more with less results? Spending more on themselves and not accomplishing anything?

Look at the money that goes to a University and how they never have enough, but the professors make huge six figure saleries. Why do so many worry what a business makes, but ignores what public servants make?

Solar may be the answer, or maybe alge is. Until it is, why should we gamble on a fantasy that may or may not happen? Why do those who want to believe these things so strongly want to spend other peoples money on it, but never their own?

Eddie

I said the wars were the cause of the huge deficit. I hope not to have to explain the difference.
...Research money has dried up as a result of short sightedness and many other highly needed funding conflicts. It has to be brought back. The country needs a direction - something for research to aim at. Drilling for and burning fossil fuel is just stasis ... not a vision or a way forward to improvement. Clean energy leading to more self sufficiency is a way forward that would benefit us 1st and then the world. The govt is the only entity that can draw all the players toward a focus. Failing that I think our downward spiral will continue.
larry

 

[mostly_gas]

I don't know any more or less than most of the other posters on here. I do know that the millions of tons of pollutants we pump into the atmosphere every year must be screwing something up! Not saying it causes "global warming" just saying you would have to be an idiot if you didn't think it was doing something however.

How big is is big? How many tons of CO2 does it take to raise the air 10 parts per million? When someone tells you "tons of pollution" they are not giving you useful information with respect to how it affects you or the environment. Pollution standards that tell you if various substances will affect you are expressed in relative concentration %,parts per 1000, parts per million, you get the idea. 1 ton of mercury in your backyard BAD!!. That same ton spread across the US is not detectable.

 

[houstonscott]

With all the oil in the oil shales of the western USA people don't realize the change in power that will bring. USA sits on top of more oil than in Saudi Arabia now and much of that is on private property. In a few short years States like Wyoming will have more money than the USA as a whole. Those states will run the show not Washington DC. Those States have no intention of baling out the USA either. They are making their own plans now to secure their anatomy and economic future without a USA. Get ready for things to change as USA goes belly up and a few states become rich beyond what you see now in the middle east. And important to this thread is they don't give a flying wallenda about global warming.

Wyoming House advances doomsday bill

HS

 

[SPYDERLK]

Larry you are free to invest all you want. I have a problem with government getting involved because of the cronnie capitalism that has been there for years. Waste and fraud abound everyone promises to fix it and no one does. If we task the government with more we just invite it to be bigger with more waste and fraud.
If you really want to see more investment in Solar organize a group so you can more money to invest as the group sees fit. No doubt you will get far more result than Uncle Sam:thumbsup:

I have seen estimates as high as 25% of Medicare/Medicaid fraud, has that been dealt with? As long as government funds shrimp on a treadmill and earmarks I don't see how the research will be guided in an effective manor. You lack of response to that point may mean that you don't know either, if you do I am all ears. People have learned how to get money out of the government with nothing to show for it. I agree there needs to be research, but I disagree that government funded research will accomplish much, othe than too wast more money.

I did not respond to it because I saw more a rant than a point. Of course theres waste. Fraud too. The govt cant just toss money around to every idea that someone makes sound good. They have to state a direction at which research will be aimed. They have to incentivize it by vision and aid in making resources and funding steadily available. They have to monitor the work without overshadowing it except when it might rarely start into unrelated avenues that cant be supported based on foreseen potential. The countrys Labs arent all gone yet.
Where Have You Gone, Bell Labs? - BusinessWeek
I think they have to be rejuvenated and given a focus before our great country is a was.
...larry

 

[mostly_gas]

I said the wars were the cause of the huge deficit. I hope not to have to explain the difference.
...Research money has dried up as a result of short sightedness and many other highly needed funding conflicts. It has to be brought back. The country needs a direction - something for research to aim at. Drilling for and burning fossil fuel is just stasis ... not a vision or a way forward to improvement. Clean energy leading to more self sufficiency is a way forward that would benefit us 1st and then the world. The govt is the only entity that can draw all the players toward a focus. Failing that I think our downward spiral will continue.
larry

No just how much money is being spent over and above normal military spending? I have not seen the break down of the numbers that get bandied about, but if it is like times past where the dollar "come from" on the cash flow sheet are not all "off budget". And remember 40 cents of every dollar spent is borrowed. So Larry what is your plan to cut the budget 40% add more money to research and keep the government from WASTING funding on low priority earmarks?

 

[crash325]

This is where I get confused. Nobody is saying that you shouldn't look for other sources of power. That is both misleading and dishonest. I'm all for solar, wind and alge. But I'm not for giving away hundreds of millions of tax payer money to companies to see if they can make it work. I'm especially not for giving them money when they already have a history of failure and a product that does not work and is available from other sources for less money.

At what point do you say it's time to stop throwing away money at something that isn't even a problem. There is no oil shortage. The energy crisis is self created by our governments refusal to allow big oil to do what they do best. Why do you want to blame the company that is supplying you with oil for creating the shortage when their only purpose in existing is to make a profit by selling oil and oil products?

Who is making it harder to get oil? Why are they making it more difficult to get oil? And the biggest mystery is why do you defend Obama when he has done so much to cause the energy crisis and absolutely nothing to fix it?

We are in debt so far that our lifestyle is now being affected by goverenment spending. Super Inflation is the next step. The answer Obama has is to spend more and raise taxes. Next year, Jan 1st, all our taxes are going up big time. It's designed to happen after the election and it's going to hurt. What will happen with the additional income? Will they just spend more money or will we find more ways to not pay taxes? Loop Holes or just not working as much?

If Solar is a good thing, then let those selling it put their money into it. Let them develop it and make it happen. Give them tax breaks and tax insentives, but do not give them CASH!!!!!

Government is not here to gamble with tax dollars on pet projects.

Eddie

So well stated Eddie. Wish all the ranters and such would read what you said here and in your other posts. But with their agenda, facts mean nothing to them.

Thank You - I think "Oscar" would be a better Pres than "O".

 

[Cat_Driver]

If Solar is a good thing, then let those selling it put their money into it. Let them develop it and make it happen. Give them tax breaks and tax insentives, but do not give them CASH!!!!!

Here in Mexifornia they make it costly via permits and difficult to use solar. The reason? Because the City of L.A. get M-O-N-E-Y from the people using power and the lose money when they use Solar.

Funny how they talk out of both sides of their moth when it comes to money.

Permit fees are in the thousands, and delays with permits take years. On guy had to sue the city to get his solar installed.

Now let's talk Solindra. Everyone on the planet knew you could buy Solar panels from China for ten cents on the dollar compared to the USA. This has been known for 20 years.

So why anyone would give a half Billion to do it better and cheaper when it was known that was an impossibility. How can you compete with employees that make $200.00 a moth and give you 10 hours a day. NO ONE can compete.

Yet because the government gets free money from you and me they are allowed to be ignorant and not do due diligence and spend wisely. And they will do it again, and again, and again.

Sort of like giving a 10 year old $1000.00 and dropping him off at Toys R US. Do you think he will spend wisely or save the money.......not a chance.

 

[Tollster]

No, how are they subsidized get specific

How much money does the U.S. government give oil, gas and coal companies?
Estimates of the value of U.S. federal subsidies to the domestic oil and gas industry alone (not coal) range from "only" $4 billion a year, to an amazing $41 billion annually. One recent comprehensive study of U.S. energy subsidies, identified $72.5 billion in federal subsidies for fossil fuels between 2002-2008, or just over $10 billion annually.

President Obama wants Congress to chop $3.6 billion in 2012 oil and gas tax breaks for a total of $46.2 billion over the next decade. Among Mr. Obama targets: a nearly century-old oil and gas industry tax deduction for the costs of preparing drill sites and a manufacturer's tax break granted the oil industry in 2004.
The number is significant, but still little more than one-tenth of the federal subsidies that oil and gas companies might receive over 10 years. Adjusted for inflation, they currently receive about $41 billion in annual subsidies annually. That amounts to more than half 52 percent of total benefits distributed to energy sectors by the federal government


I believe the free ride the oil companies have had through subsidies should end as they seem to be very profitable, use those dollars promote clean energy and energy efficiency alternatives, to produce more electricity from water, wind, and solar power.

Those reductionsin subsidies have come up and with Obama pushing for a large decrease, however congress has fail to pass anything. (Wonder which party had anything to do with that?)

I recon that just would not be fair though, now would it?

Fossil Fuel Subsidies | The Price of Oil


Yea Eddie,we can remove the CASH,if we remove the subsidies on fossil fuel,how does that sound? Yea,I didn't think so.

 

[hosspuller]

How much money does the U.S. government give oil, gas and coal companies?
Estimates of the value of U.S. federal subsidies to the domestic oil and gas industry alone (not coal) range from "only" $4 billion a year, to an amazing $41 billion annually. One recent comprehensive study of U.S. energy subsidies, identified $72.5 billion in federal subsidies for fossil fuels between 2002-2008, or just over $10 billion annually.


Fossil Fuel Subsidies | The Price of Oil

The link posted doesn't identify anything. It's more circular logic saying studies have identified subsidies.

Another big lie without specifics.