Do you use home heating or pump at the diesel

[etcallhome]

In WV both are the same just different price...HHO and off road..

 

[newbury]

On Southern States web page:

Available in both an ultra low sulfur (ULS) formula for on-road use and a dyed low sulfur (DLS) for on-farm and off-road use, SuperGold gets your diesel equipment started faster and keeps it working longer with:

Premium Diesel Fuel at Southern States - Southern States

As I wrote in http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/trailers-transportation/235248-lsd-dls-ulsd.html

So apparently they think they are producing a premium LS diesel, or they have not changed their web page.

 

[nspec]

RickB, sorry but I respectfully disagree. It's quite easy to substantiate in fact. I work on a ship and we deliver thousands of barrels (read - millions of gallons) of the stuff directly from the refineries. Home heating oil and off road diesel may be the same, but there is also ULSD, LSD, and premium marine diesel, as well as a few others). As I previously explained, they differ in their additive packages - directly from the refinery, not at the retailer. Sure, they're substantially the same with regards to how they're distilled, but lubricity and cetane varies substantially - its checked before and after we handle it in fact. This is what effects the modern generation of injection pumps and injectors. Will the engines run? Absolutely. But these problems are well known and well documented.

 

[nspec]

Here's some more info. LSD (500 ppm) is still produced and is required to be separated and labeled conspicuously. Allowed until 2014 in certain locomotive, marine, and off road applications.

ULSD(15 ppm), also required to be labeled conspicuously is the spec fuel for most new diesel engines. A higher sulfur fuel run through these engines has been proven to cause seal shrinkage, premature injector and injector pump damage, and damage to emmisions related equipment. It is my belief that we are talking about post 2006 engines. Any older diesel engine should be able to run any fuel now - high or low sulfur due to added lubricity components in the new blends. This was not the case when lsd was first introduced to market, and many engines had issues. I'm told about 20% of refined diesels are other than ULSD at this time. I'm also told it's more than additives. There is actually a slightly different refining process to remove more sulfur.

HHO I believe is now all ULSD. In certain markets, there are different additive packages than are found in on-road fuel. Everything we transport is separated. It is more involved than just the taxes and dyes.

 

[LBrown59]

1* this dealer told me the sulfur is not a factor,
3*the "low sulfur" is now the same in both type fuels.
4* He did mention off road fuel has an additive called C-Tane, [ cetane] where heating oil does not.
5*In his opinion he would not put heating oil in a Diesel engine.
6*I think that is crap to be honest. I
7* cetane is an additive that one can purchase if you feel you should have C-Tane in the fuel.

8*I would be concerned about the lubricity of home heating oil.
9*Low sulfer fuel has inherent lubricity problems.
10*ULSD from the pump has lubricity additives added so it is kinder to our fuel pumps.

11*switched late last summer to HHO and all seems OK so far.
12*wondered about the gelling issue, too,
13* but wouldn't that also be a problem for flow from outside furnace-fuel tanks?
14*The price difference is substantial here (at least 20 to 25 cents per liter).

15*Outside-tank furnaces can't use heating oil.
16* They have to use kerosene (or a 50/50 mix).

I've been using HHO in my tractors for 20 years. NEVER have had a fuel pump problem. (Thats with over 5000 hours combined use)
17*RARELY have gelling issues (sometimes when temps are below 10F).
18* Maryland only allows low sulfur diesel and HHO.

19*You never had a problem because 20 years ago there was no such thing as low sulfur and ultra low sulfur fuel.
20*This is a fairly recent development.
21* LSD and ULSD have additives to increase fuel lubricity and address these issues,

22*I asked at the time of purchase about fuel oil.
23*This may vary from region to region, but I was assured that if it ran well in the 1710 and the 5600, it will run well in the WM55

*****************************
===============
1*He's right.2*
3* This has changed they quit making LSD back in 2010, so there is no longer 2 or 3 different types just one and that is ULSD.
4*[ cetane] is nor more of and additive to diesel then octane is an additive to gasoline.
He is wrong cause ULSD has been used for everything since 2010.
5*Then he shouldn't put on or off road in it either since its the same thing.
6*I know it is.
7*All diesel has it just like all gasoline has octane .
8*No need to be it's all the same stuff.
9*Everything has been ULSD since 2010 .
For the first year or so ULSD did have some issues that have since been resolved.
10*All ulsd has that the pumps got nothing to do with it. .
11*You really didn't switch anything cause you are still using the same stuff.
12*There is no gelling issue if you use winter blend .
13*It's same thing people run in there cars and pickups so there would not be a problem with gelling .
14* I usually save 30 to 50 cents a gallon .
15*Sure they can cause it's all the same stuff.
16*Not really necessary .
17* It has to get really cold.
18*That's odd because all they make is one fuel and that's ULSD which can be used in everything.
19*When I bought my Kubota back in 2004 there was sulfer and LSD.
The EPA Demanded LSD for on road and later required ULSD for on road use .
20*The industry met this requirement early by switching production to ULSD only in 2010.
That resulted in eliminating several steps and shaved years off the conversion process.
21*LSD was fazed out in 2010.
22*It's all ULSD .
23*It should it's all the same stuff.

24*The lubricity of ULS HHO won't be materially different than most ULSD on- or off-road fuel you buy.
25*Some individual fuel retailers may add various additives to fuel they sell, but making an industry-wide blanket statement that ULS Diesel fuel is materially different from ULS HHO is impossible to substantiate. _______________
-------------

26*In WV both are the same just different price...HHO and off road..

24*There is only ULSD so there's no difference.
25*It's all ULSD.
26*the price difference is the tax.

 

[nspec]

I'm through here. This makes me so upset. I guess people will just believe what they want. I'm before you telling you that I transport over 500,000 barrels of the stuff every week - thats over 20 million gallons - and you have the nerve to tell me it doesn't exist? There is most definitely other product out there besides ULSD. It is not all the same stuff just dyed and taxed. We transport ULSD, LSD, #2 fuel oil (these 3 are traded independently on the spot market if you still don't believe me), marine gas oil, marine diesel oil, and others.

They are materially different fuels. You can debate this 'till you're blue in the face - I'll keep moving the stuff.

I know we're way off topic and I apologize. This will be my last post on this topic. It's just that I really hate misinformation, and there seems to be a lot of it online. Our forum is very useful to so many. I don't want it to contribute to the misinformation that is out there.

 

[crazyal]

[/color]
15*Since it's ULSD and ULSD comes in winter blend so then does home heating oil .

Maybe where you live this is true but I can tell you for a fact that in Vermont this is not the case. Here HHO does not contain any anti-gel additives in it. People who have their tanks outdoors have to burn more expensive Kerosene (which also comes in on road and off road). You should be real careful making a blanket statement as someone could find out next winter the hard way when their tractor will not start.

You have to remember some states have banned using newspaper to start a fire. States like us also make rash decisions to save the planet, decisions like dictating which additives can be burnt in off road equipment and heating systems. I think it's the "Lets follow California and make our laws tougher than federal laws".

 

[MrWhippy]

I'm through here. This makes me so upset. I guess people will just believe what they want. I'm before you telling you that I transport over 500,000 barrels of the stuff every week - thats over 20 million gallons - and you have the nerve to tell me it doesn't exist? There is most definitely other product out there besides ULSD. It is not all the same stuff just dyed and taxed. We transport ULSD, LSD, #2 fuel oil (these 3 are traded independently on the spot market if you still don't believe me), marine gas oil, marine diesel oil, and others.

They are materially different fuels. You can debate this 'till you're blue in the face - I'll keep moving the stuff.

I know we're way off topic and I apologize. This will be my last post on this topic. It's just that I really hate misinformation, and there seems to be a lot of it online. Our forum is very useful to so many. I don't want it to contribute to the misinformation that is out there.

I understand your point, however:

1. Separating fuel oils in different trucks/tanks can have as much to do with governmental licensing as chemical composition (I know for a fact this is true in the case of ethanol--food grade vs various non-food grade--same stuff, different drums)

2. Unless there is an actual analysis of the different products, there is no way to verify whether it is essentially the same or not, and what the actual differences are. In fact, some of the additive packages may have more to do with emissions and less to do with lubricity.

To me, this is the point to agree to disagree.:drink:

 

[crazyal]

I understand your point, however:

1. Separating fuel oils in different trucks/tanks can have as much to do with governmental licensing as chemical composition (I know for a fact this is true in the case of ethanol--food grade vs various non-food grade--same stuff, different drums)

2. Unless there is an actual analysis of the different products, there is no way to verify whether it is essentially the same or not, and what the actual differences are. In fact, some of the additive packages may have more to do with emissions and less to do with lubricity.

To me, this is the point to agree to disagree.:drink:

#2 raises a whole new question. I don't know of any furnaces that have any form of emission system on them but on the new Tier IV engines with emissions they reburn the exhaust fumes. It could be years before we know if the additives used in HHO (to clean the bottom of the tank) will cause the emission system to plug up. A furnace just requires a door to be opened, a quick brushing, and a vacuum to suck up the ash.

 

[nspec]

One last time.....


#2 home heating oil: 3,000 ppm sulfur

LSD: 500 ppm sulfur

ULSD: 15 ppm sulfur

Each is refined independently, stored independently, and traded on the commodities market independently. You can check this yourself by looking at the Wall Street Journal spot market prices for New York Harbor delivery.

We even have chemists who check the product before and after we transport it to make sure the product has not mixed.

There is also some interesting reading put out by Chevron which explains the refining and physical properties of each of these and many other products. They even say that due to logistical concerns, there are times when marine gas oil ends up mixed with home heating oil and additive adjustments must be made accordingly. All the more reason not to put home heating oil in a new diesel engine.

I've provided now numerous rants on this subject and submitted all the proof any rational person would need to believe that there is indeed more than just one type of fuel which is simply labeled and sold differently. If you still choose not to believe me, I'll just have to chalk it up to pure ignorance.