Diesles for 2014

[Monster5601]

On the way home yesterday, I stopped off at my favorite tractor dealer to pick up oil and filters. He is a small owner operator dealership and he was telling me about a conversation he recently had with his factory rep.

He was telling me beginning with the January 2014 Kubota diesels builds, they will have to meet the next set of emission standards. This will require common rail injection with computer control and a particulate filter. He said this will add $3,500.00 to each diesel, across the diesel product line.

The story starting going south when he told me that the rep told him that only Kubota and Yanmar built engines will be required to meet the new emissions, the engines from China will get a pass since they are behind in development.

I realize that a good story isn't worth telling if it doesn't have drama but we both agreed that the rep was telling a story. But again, I could see our government doing something stupid.

I know this is all hear say but I'm curious if anyone else has heard about the up coming small diesel off-road engine emissions?

 

[PHILIP8N]

This is a hard subject to understand and explain. All of Kubota's engines between 11 and 75 hp already meet T4i requirements (I am leaving out engines larger than 75 hp since this is a small percentage and to make it less confusing). All engines between 11 and 75 hp must meet T4f by Jan 1 2013. What is T4f? Exhaust emmisions, NOX, CO, PM, must be a agreed levels, and used with the appropriate fuel and oil (remember the changes to ULSDF and low ash oils?). It is up to the manufacturer to decide how they want to do this. What if an engine manufacturer (Kubota) or an equipment manufacturer (Kubota) are not ready to meet this by 2013? They can 'flex' a percentage or a number of T4i engines depending upon the volume they previously delivered. This is global legislature, not just US. From memory, US, Canada, Japan, and EU are supporting T4. Some contries are supporting T3, India, China. Some countries are supporting T2, Mexico, Australia, Brazil, Argentina, Russia. The rest currently have no legislation in place. So, can China flood market with non-emmision engines and tractors? No, they can flex a certain percentage or number of T4i engines, just like Kubota, Deere, etc, can. After that number has been reached, they must come with a T4f solution. Is this increasing cost to us? Bet your butt it is. But it is also giving us clean air. We must advance as a human race. This is just new technology. Emmisions and engines have been continuously advancing since the day they were first built, and this is just the next step. This is a simple answer to a big question. I have read pages and pages on diesel engine exhaust emmisions, and sat through dozens of power points on this subject with Caterpillar, Cummins, and Deere industrial engine groups. Sorry, but this cannot be entirely explained in one post on TBN. Want to avoild the next engine change, BUY NOW (nothing new, it is called a pre-buy, everybody does it before the next step comes out). Check this out and do more searching for more information. Emission Standards: USA: Nonroad Diesel Engines. Philip.

 

[MessickFarmEqu]

Kubota has had many tier 4i compliant engines for several years, the big problem is going to come at full tier 4 (whenever that is). Thats when your BX will need a $3000 exaust scrubber.

We've pretty well accepted the DEF solutions as being a fair way forward. The fuel savings is paying off the cost of the hardare and fluid, however the RIO on that stuff won't happen on low use equipment. It would nice if there where variances granted based on expected hours of use.

 

[TripleR]

I will in all likelihood stick with a good used tractor for my next purchase.

 

[JOHNTHOMAS]

Looks like justification for me to trade all of mine just before the new requirements.:thumbsup: I thought I was finished with trading!!!!:laughing::laughing:

 

[CompactTractorFan]

Kubota has had many tier 4i compliant engines for several years, the big problem is going to come at full tier 4 (whenever that is). Thats when your BX will need a $3000 exaust scrubber.

We've pretty well accepted the DEF solutions as being a fair way forward. The fuel savings is paying off the cost of the hardare and fluid, however the RIO on that stuff won't happen on low use equipment. It would nice if there where variances granted based on expected hours of use.

Insane...:confused2:

 

[CAgnoli]

I'm in a tight spot. We plan on moving to Tennessee next summer, but haven't purchased the house yet. My B2620 is enough tractor for the 11.65 acres I have right now. My fear is we will find a great deal on a 40+ acre home, and I'll need a larger machine, and the new regs will have kicked in.

Hate to buy a Grand L this year only to find I'm in a smaller lot when we move....

Oh well. It is what it is, I can't control the government, but I'm not going to let them control me as long as I can.

Maybe I'll buy the Grand L this year, and hope for a great resale after the new emissions kick in, these pre T4F machines might carry a bit of a premium for a long while.

 

[PHILIP8N]

I'm in a tight spot. We plan on moving to Tennessee next summer, but haven't purchased the house yet. My B2620 is enough tractor for the 11.65 acres I have right now. My fear is we will find a great deal on a 40+ acre home, and I'll need a larger machine, and the new regs will have kicked in.

Hate to buy a Grand L this year only to find I'm in a smaller lot when we move....

Oh well. It is what it is, I can't control the government, but I'm not going to let them control me as long as I can.

Maybe I'll buy the Grand L this year, and hope for a great resale after the new emissions kick in, these pre T4F machines might carry a bit of a premium for a long while.

All or the new Kubota tractors are T4i (tier 4 interim) now. On engines this size, I cannot imagine a $3000 adder when they go T4f (tier 4 final). Philip.

 

[namesray]

my kubota dealer told me he has bought a year supply ahead to advoid selling the new tier 4 equipment just yet. so far it has just affected the M series. like was said before, if you are going to buy a new tractor, NOW is the time. i have been eyeing a b3300su and this new tier 4 is going to push me to buy now rather then wait. there almost certainly will be "bugs" to work out for the first year or so and i do not want to get caught in those "bugs". remember the "NEW" tier 4 standards are NEW and new always has bugs to work out. it might work good in the concept and test phase, but has not been longevity tested in the real world yet. the tractors that haven't been converted yet, have been refined for the past few years, so they have almost all the bugs worked out. where i work, when mack and international trucks came out with this particulate filter and regen system stuff, there was bugs to work out. any time something new comes out, there will be issues that need refined, so that is why i will probably buy that new b3300su now, before the new tier 4 hits the smaller hp engines.

 

[PHILIP8N]

My 2009 Kubota L3940 has a Tier 4 interim engine in it. It is already here, and there are no problems. The Tier 4 final engines over 175hp are in new off road equipment now. Tier 4 final engines have been in over the road trucks (pick-up and big-rigs) since 2010. Fear not change, accept it. Philip.

 

[kuboman]

My 2009 Kubota L3940 has a Tier 4 interim engine in it. It is already here, and there are no problems. The Tier 4 final engines over 175hp are in new off road equipment now. Tier 4 final engines have been in over the road trucks (pick-up and big-rigs) since 2010. Fear not change, accept it. Philip.

Oh how it never ceases to amaze me how we are just to accept stupidity:confused2: We may have to deal with it but accept it..never.
As for there being no problems. The T4's are racked with problems but we are dealing with it.

 

[PHILIP8N]

Oh how it never ceases to amaze me how we are just to accept stupidity:confused2: We may have to deal with it but accept it..never.
As for there being no problems. The T4's are racked with problems but we are dealing with it.

I have not had one issue with my T4i engine. New on highway T4f issues are few and far between. New off road T4f are working out load vs rpm issues now, but they have allot of on highway experience to make this a smoother transaction. How is this stupid? Clean air? Yeah, that is really stupid. I do not agree with the cost increase, but that is the price of technology, it will come down. I enjoyed the 70's too, but I am glad for all the advances we have made since then. Philip.

 

[IslandTractor]

Something that hasn't been mentioned: once new tractors cost an extra $3000 due to pollution controls, all used tractors on the market will overnight gain some portion of that $3000 in value. If someone has a used pre emission control L3940 with 2 hours on it that tractor will be worth quite a bit more as soon as the list price for the next year L3940x goes up. Maybe a good way to boost your retirement savings is to buy a bunch of new or nearly new pre emission control tractors and then sell them off slowly once prices shoot up.

Of course you'd have to keep them in prime operating condition so you'd need to drive them around a bit every once in a while. Not too much, just a few hours a year of joy riding in new tractors. :thumbsup::laughing:

 

[kuboman]

I have not had one issue with my T4i engine. New on highway T4f issues are few and far between. New off road T4f are working out load vs rpm issues now, but they have allot of on highway experience to make this a smoother transaction. How is this stupid? Clean air? Yeah, that is really stupid. I do not agree with the cost increase, but that is the price of technology, it will come down. I enjoyed the 70's too, but I am glad for all the advances we have made since then. Philip.

Well you are one of the lucky ones. The complication and expense at the cost of efficiency is the stupid part. And if it was really about clean air and not about control of people and taking their money then I would be in favor of it.

 

[MHarryE]

Why would he lie to you about the Chinese engines not needing to meet the standard? If sold in a regulated country they must meet the regs no matter where they come from. Yes, their is a possibility to flex for some months by building other engines that far exceed the standard. The trucking industry is now struggling to keep up with demand for the newest engines due to reliability and improved fuel economy. If you visit places like China where they have our old regs you will find days when you can't use your machine/vehicle at all due to pollution. When I go there I need an adjustment period because my lungs are used to relatively.clean air. Why so much anti-progress? My 1969 Chevelle SS396 could kick *** but it gave off clouds of smoke and I was lucky to get 14 mpg on the highway if I changed plugs and points every 8,000 miles. Now my similar size car will beat the Chevelle 1/4 mile time and get over 30 mpg on the highway averaging higher speed, and I haven't done anything but change oil and filters in the first 100k. The Chevelle went before 60k. If you have a newer tractor did you notice the warning up front that diesel exhaust is proven to cause cancer? How much is your life worth? It's like my hearing. Every new tractor we got the muffler had to go - it robbed power. Hearing protection - unheard of back then. Now my most common conversation with my wife is, "What did they say?".

 

[rambler]

(I am leaving out engines larger than 75 hp since this is a small percentage and to make it less confusing).

Kinda lost all value to me with silly comments like that.

Tier 3 & 4 has been a big deal to farmers and truckers for some time now, don't think we are a small percentage users?

Just to note, chainsaws also are gonna need computer controls coming up in a year or 2, this stuff is effecting everything.

--->Paul

 

[PHILIP8N]

Kinda lost all value to me with silly comments like that.

Tier 3 & 4 has been a big deal to farmers and truckers for some time now, don't think we are a small percentage users?

Just to note, chainsaws also are gonna need computer controls coming up in a year or 2, this stuff is effecting everything.

--->Paul

Taken out of text. The horserpower number is in reference to Kubota powered products, and the majority of their engines is below 75 horsepower. I am well aware of regulations up to and through 751 horserpower, which includes farmers and truckers and miners and drillers and construction wokers and etc... But, I felt it best to leave those comments out of this forum. Sorry it lost all its value for you. Philip.

 

[Recoveryhill]

Well you are one of the lucky ones. The complication and expense at the cost of efficiency is the stupid part. And if it was really about clean air and not about control of people and taking their money then I would be in favor of it.

I can just see the meeting where the controllers conspire to take control of the masses via implementation of clean air standards on tractors. I too really love automobiles from the 1960's but god save me from ignition points, bias ply polyester tires, carburetors, no air bags, 11 mpg V8's, brake shoes and....and....and.....forcing us to wear seat belts thereby reducing highway deaths by a shocking percentage; that's were we lost our freedom. When will this evil conspiracy stop?

 

[kuboman]

I can just see the meeting where the controllers conspire to take control of the masses via implementation of clean air standards on tractors. I too really love automobiles from the 1960's but god save me from ignition points, bias ply polyester tires, carburetors, no air bags, 11 mpg V8's, brake shoes and....and....and.....forcing us to wear seat belts thereby reducing highway deaths by a shocking percentage; that's were we lost our freedom. When will this evil conspiracy stop?

:2cents::confused3:

 

[namesray]

My 2009 Kubota L3940 has a Tier 4 interim engine in it. It is already here, and there are no problems. The Tier 4 final engines over 175hp are in new off road equipment now. Tier 4 final engines have been in over the road trucks (pick-up and big-rigs) since 2010. Fear not change, accept it. Philip.

yes the tier 4 interim engines run good but like i said have been around for a little bit and the bugs worked out. the tier 4 final engines will either have the particulate filters on them that collect the exhaust particles and dispose of them through high heat="regeneration" or using another fluid=urea, that mixes in the exhaust chamber and emits only water vapor out.

and yes this is only in the larger hp engines now and yes it has been it big rigs and trucks for a couple of years now, BUT

where i work, the state transportation dept., we have a lot of mack and international dump trucks. the new ones (since 2010) have had the new tier 4 final standards on them. in particular the regeneration/particulate filter type. and like i say, THE BUGS, now when plowing snow on state highways, when the truck needs to regenerate, the operator has to pull over and park for about 30-40 minutes, in a snow storm, for the truck to regenerate. if the operator does not do this, the engine system becomes clogged and the truck loses power and eventually will shut down.

now "technology" is so great that the older trucks (with OUT the new tier 4 final standards/systems) can just keep on trucking and plowing.:confused2: that is a bug. the trucks are supposed to regen while driving, BUT that is at highway speeds, for a certain amount of time. can't do that when using for utility/service work such as plowing snow. that is why you have to do "parked regeneration"

and what do you think the truck is running on when it is at high idle for 30-40 minutes "regenerating"? diesel fuel. yes, now we are tring to be fuel efficient, but have to pull off the road and do an EXTRA process that costs more fuel!:confused2: ANOTHER BUG that needs worked out. just ask ford power stroke owners how they tell when their pick up truck is done regenerating. most will say, "when i notice the miles per gallon go back up".

now, the newer trucks that have tier 4 final emmission standards are getting better at this. they regenerate more on their own while being operated. but the first models had that bug to work out. same will hold true for the tractors. in fact some engine companies stopped making engines, due to not being able to meet tier 4 final standards.(CAT) those companies have other engines in their equipment.

and another thing, all this extra stuff on the equipment will mean more to go wrong. when was the last time you had a manuel 4wd lever on a 4x4 break? probably not as often as an "electronic" push button type. so now we are adding more electronics on tractors, so now more to go wrong. all these reasons are why i will buy now, before tier 4 final hits the smaller hp engines. i am not against cleaner air, just against the goverment implementing their plan wasting more of my hard earned money on new technology that is not refined YET! yes i believe this new tier 4 final will get the bugs worked out, but it will be a bit. then i might look at a tier 4 final tractor then.