Oil & Fuel Tractor turns over but won't start?

[RoyJackson]

Seems like most folks are looking at the fuel system.

First thing I'd try is jumping the tractor from a known good battery. It might be the tractor's battery isn't producing enough amps to spin the starter fast enough.
(Just because the tractor is new, it could still have a marginal battery)

 

[k0ua]

Boris1 on the electrical diagram (it is a diagram NOT a schematic unfortunatley) here is the fuel shut off solenoid

1A021-60015 010 ASSY SOLENOID

there is a picture of this use the part number 1A021-60015 to find it on the diagram is is part 010 on the diagram you can see a little rod coming out of the solenoid and going into the injector pump this is what shuts off the fuel. You can see an electrical connector that attaches to the fuel shut off solenoid, this what you want to pull and test for voltage, and also ohm the coil of the solenoid. I am downloading the engine diagram, as the fuel diagram did not cover this aspect of the tractor, I am hoping the engine diagram will show more.. suggest you also request the engine diagram.

James K0UA

 

[k0ua]

On page 12 of the engine diagram:

1A021-60015 190 ASSY SOLENOID

This is a much better drawing of the injector and solenoid, and also there appears to be a manual fuel shut off lever part 100, there may be nothing attached to that lever, but I would want to know that it was not shut off somehow accidently? Keep checking, and good luck

James K0UA

 

[Boris1]

I have it, heading out there to take a look shortly. Let you now what I find.

Thanks again

 

[Boris1]

Ok, after my best contortionist / plastic man impression I was able to get the fuel solenoid plug off, I turned the ignition on and tested it for 12v dc and did not see any voltage? I then took my volt meter to the fuse box and checked every fuse and everything looked good. So I went back and connected the solenoid back up and by the time I got to the other side of the tractor I heard it pull in? I guess it was a bad connection, but it doesn't explain why I had no voltage when I tested it? It looked like my leads were going deep enough in the plug to touch metal. Maybe i should have checked each side to ground instead. Any way it started right up after that.

Thanks to everyone and James for the help.
Much appreciated!

 

[RaydaKub]

OK, I admit that I haven't followed this thread terribly closely, but aren't the fuel solenoids in a normal-off state? Don't they fire and shut off the fuel and then go back off after 15 seconds or so? To me it sounds like it shut off, but then didn't return to it's resting state for some reason. And in the resting state, you wouldn't be able to measure any voltage because it is off (both during run time and sitting in the garage time; the only time you would find a voltage is when it is actively killing the fuel flow and then for the pre-determined time).

Or have I totally misunderstood how these systems work?

 

[k0ua]

I don't know for sure how they work, and they may not all be the same, But If I was designing it, it would work this way, The key would apply power, and the fuel solenoid would energize and stay that way with coil drawing a small amount of power to create the magnetic field enough to draw back the armature and overcome the spring pressure pushing the armature the other direction. When the key is shut off, the voltage is removed,the magnetic field collapses and the spring pressure pushes the solenoid into the injector blocking fuel flow. Does it actually work this way,? I don't have a clue. Perhaps someone who actually knows can comment.

Boris1 something you said bothers me, you said:

So I went back and connected the solenoid back up and by the time I got to the other side of the tractor I heard it pull in? I guess it was a bad connection,

the thing that bothers me if I understood you correctly, is the solenoid pulled in after a few seconds after you put the connector back on the solenoid.. The problem with that is it should have pulled up instantly when you reconnected it. I am thinking you still have an intermittant open connection near that connector, in that connector or perhaps the inside connection of the very small guage wire the solenoid is wound with when it attaches to the actual terminals the connector attach to. So if you still have a problem it will manifest itself when you least want it or need it. Could it be possible you had a little corroision on the terminals of the plug? maybe a little dielectric grease (silicone) on those would help, You can hope that is all it is. Time will tell, but at least you now know where to start looking for trouble if it comes back. Now if it were me, I would take voltage readings and make a resistance check (ohms) of that coil while it is working for reference if it quits again..Good Luck

James K0UA

 

[zoltanthegypsy]

Don't know with certainty about the OP's machine, but on my GR2120 and pretty sure on my BX24, that solenoid is only energized briefly to shut off the engine.

Proved it on the GR when I blew a fuse, and the thing would not shut off until I manually "energized" the solenoid.

Z.

 

[k0ua]

Don't know with certainty about the OP's machine, but on my GR2120 and pretty sure on my BX24, that solenoid is only energized briefly to shut off the engine.

Proved it on the GR when I blew a fuse, and the thing would not shut off until I manually "energized" the solenoid.

Z.

Well perhaps that is how they work then, with a timer circuit of some kind.

James K0UA

 

[zoltanthegypsy]

Well perhaps that is how they work then, with a timer circuit of some kind.

James K0UA

Yep. Just verified that for both machines w/the wiring diagrams. Timer relay and stop solenoid.

[edit] and maybe someday I'll get quoting to work right.

 

[Boris1]

I don't know for sure how they work, and they may not all be the same, But If I was designing it, it would work this way, The key would apply power, and the fuel solenoid would energize and stay that way with coil drawing a small amount of power to create the magnetic field enough to draw back the armature and overcome the spring pressure pushing the armature the other direction. When the key is shut off, the voltage is removed,the magnetic field collapses and the spring pressure pushes the solenoid into the injector blocking fuel flow. Does it actually work this way,? I don't have a clue. Perhaps someone who actually knows can comment.

Boris1 something you said bothers me, you said:

So I went back and connected the solenoid back up and by the time I got to the other side of the tractor I heard it pull in? I guess it was a bad connection,

the thing that bothers me if I understood you correctly, is the solenoid pulled in after a few seconds after you put the connector back on the solenoid.. The problem with that is it should have pulled up instantly when you reconnected it. I am thinking you still have an intermittant open connection near that connector, in that connector or perhaps the inside connection of the very small guage wire the solenoid is wound with when it attaches to the actual terminals the connector attach to. So if you still have a problem it will manifest itself when you least want it or need it. Could it be possible you had a little corroision on the terminals of the plug? maybe a little dielectric grease (silicone) on those would help, You can hope that is all it is. Time will tell, but at least you now know where to start looking for trouble if it comes back. Now if it were me, I would take voltage readings and make a resistance check (ohms) of that coil while it is working for reference if it quits again..Good Luck

James K0UA

Will do and thanks again for the insight!

Matt

 

[RaydaKub]

I don't know for sure how they work, and they may not all be the same, But If I was designing it, it would work this way, The key would apply power, and the fuel solenoid would energize and stay that way with coil drawing a small amount of power to create the magnetic field enough to draw back the armature and overcome the spring pressure pushing the armature the other direction. When the key is shut off, the voltage is removed,the magnetic field collapses and the spring pressure pushes the solenoid into the injector blocking fuel flow. Does it actually work this way,? I don't have a clue.

I was in your camp, but I've come to see the light after a rather loud Kubota thread about "my tractor won't shut off" last fall. If you have a load on and the fuse blows, the tractor shuts off and the load is still rolling. Not good. Usually this is going to be more serious than the engine just not shutting off. You should still be able to turn off the pto and leave the engine running in an emergency for example. So the default is that the energized position is to shut it off and only momentary. Less draw for current all during this time leaves less wear on the electronics also.

 

[k0ua]

I was in your camp, but I've come to see the light after a rather loud Kubota thread about "my tractor won't shut off" last fall. If you have a load on and the fuse blows, the tractor shuts off and the load is still rolling. Not good. Usually this is going to be more serious than the engine just not shutting off. You should still be able to turn off the pto and leave the engine running in an emergency for example. So the default is that the energized position is to shut it off and only momentary. Less draw for current all during this time leaves less wear on the electronics also.

Yep I believe you are right, I have looked at some bits and pieces of other threads, and there is a timer relay, Not sure how the timing is achieved yet, it might be a time delay relay complete as a componet. or something else that controls it, but in typical automotive design, they try to make it a simple and cheaply as they can. I am not 100 percent sure why it clicks when you energize the circuit, but it might just cycle and return to the relaxed position which allows fuel flow, then the timer relay is set and ready to go, when power is removed from circuit, the timer relay applies battery voltage for a few seconds to the solenoid and then it is relaxed. All supposition on my part, but sounds reasonable. And so does your explaination of why not just hold the relay back with voltage and let it snap shut to shut off the fuel. Your runaway scenario was not a pretty one And I am sure that happened to someone a long time ago before they came up with this idea.

James K0UA

 

[jimbo64]

Since its under warranty i would have your dealer make note of the fact you had a prob and what the fix was--if it does it again you may need parts----j

 

[Garybake]

Has anyone mentioned the stop solenoid. If this fails and stays shut it will not start. I am researching this problem and came cross this thread.