Changing blades on flail mower to suit conditions?

[Ram4x4]

Another couple months until I can get my Mahindra 5035 HST. Had already picked a rotary cutter and all...and then I read the massive thread on flail mowers and I think that's the direction I'm heading.

Curious though, since there are so many types of blades depending on the type of cut you want, is it OK to change the blade type to suit the job?

For example, could I put on a set of of the heavier hammer types to do the initial whacking of the weeds and brush and then switch over to the slicer or cup types for a nicer cut the next time around?

It seems the heavier the blade type the less there are of them on the mower. Is this due to their size and weight? Are the mowers made specific to their task? In other words if I buy a medium to heavy duty model, will there only be enough connection points for the heavier, rougher cutting blades and not enough connections for the smaller, cleaner cutters to work right, or do you simply not use some of the connection points when using the bigger, heavier blades?


I don't have a lot of saplings or thicker, woodier type stuff to cut, it's primarily open field with thick, dense weeds. I do want to keep it mowed down to let the grass spread and look nice.

 

[SuperCobra]

I can't speak for your specific brand but on my but I just replaced all of the blades on my Mott and it wasn't a cheap or easy task. All my previous hardware (blades, pins, and cotter pins) was trashed. IIRC it cost a couple hundred dollars and took a couple of hours to bend and pull all of the cotter pins, drive out the rusty pins, and put the new ones on. I think there were 96 stations IIRC. I never want to see another cotter pin.

 

[greg_g]

In other words if I buy a medium to heavy duty model, will there only be enough connection points for the heavier, rougher cutting blades and not enough connections for the smaller, cleaner cutters to work right...

Generally yes. My 74" Ford 917H for example, was available in two versions; fine and coarse. My coarse cut has a total of 33 attachment points. That means no more than 33 hammers, 33 one piece knives (T-type), 33 or 66 thatching blades (1 or 2 per hanger), or 66 HD knives (2 per hanger). The fine cut version on the other hand, has 99 attachment points, but can only use fine cut blades; 198 of them (2 per hanger). It is important to note also, that you must also buy the correct hanger for the duty cycle; the 917 rough cut does not share the same hanger with the 917 fine cut for example. Nor do they share the same hanger link (the part that attaches to the carrier).

When you get down to the specific manufacturer/model/sub-model and the various widths, it gets even more complicated. But I can only speak for my own machine. Hopefully that's enough to give you the general idea anyway.

Now I'll get to the part where I have to speculate. I think it's fair to say the rough cut hanger is the medium/heavy duty hanger. So I'll go out on a limb and say it attaches to a medium/heavy duty carrier (the part that spins all the hammers/knives). Carrying on with that thought, the fine cut hanger may then attach to a light duty carrier. If true, I'd be a bit hesitant to mount a smaller number of medium/heavy duty hangers on a light duty carrier. Besides, swapping all those individual pieces would be a rather time consuming job. The advantage on the other hand, is that doing so provides an excellent opportunity to sharpen all the cutting edges before re-installation.

//greg//

 

[gwdixon]

I can't speak for your specific brand but on my but I just replaced all of the blades on my Mott and it wasn't a cheap or easy task. All my previous hardware (blades, pins, and cotter pins) was trashed. IIRC it cost a couple hundred dollars and took a couple of hours to bend and pull all of the cotter pins, drive out the rusty pins, and put the new ones on. I think there were 96 stations IIRC. I never want to see another cotter pin.

:laughing::laughing::laughing: Laughing with you, not at you. I did the same with my 6' Alamo/Mott with finish blades. What a royal pain in the rear - and talk about time consuming.

My flail had well over a hundred stations. Can't remember exactly. Sort of deleted that experience from my memory.

My biggest gripe was getting the old cotter pins out. Tried bolt cutters, heavy duty snips, and finally settled on an air-operated cut off tool (grinder). Bending them straight was given up on after a couple. Those things are stiff and the pin turning as they were tried to be straightened was just too much.

 

[J_J]

Rough cut flail mowers have fewer hangers for the blades, and therefore, you can not install small finish cut blades. There will be gaps in the cutting.

If you had a spare, and complete rotor assembly you might be able to switch the rotors with different blades.

I could probably put rough cut blades or hammers on mine, by using every two or every third hanger, as long as they don't hit the frame..

 

[Ram4x4]

I see, thanks that's kinda what I was looking for. had this dandy idea to buy a "finish" cut flail and then a set of heavier blades I could swap out for heavier thrashing.

Understood it is time consuming, but a couple hundred dollars extra to get a "dual purpose" flail would be worth the time to switch out the blades.

My fear is going with something like the Caroni TM1900 only to find it isn't "heavy duty enough".

I've always been one to "over do it" in terms of equipment because to me it's always better to have a little more than you need than not enough.

I do like the way the flail works and I like how it distributes the cuttings, but overall I may have to rethink this and just go with the rotary.

 

[J_J]

Landpride

http://www.landpride.com/products/81/fm41-series-flail-mowers

Fine cutting knives (31 Series) ----- Heavy enough to cut 1” material, yet fine enough to groom a yard

Forged hammer knives (41 Series) ----- Forged hammers are just right for chopping up prunings up to 2” thick, but will also groom grass in a very acceptable manner.

 

[greg_g]

Caroni TM1900 only to find it isn't "heavy duty enough".

Yeah, it's a gamble if you don't do your homework. If you're considering a Caroni from someplace like AgriSupply, call first. They'll be able to tell you how many of which knives/hammers will work safely on which models they sell.

FWIW, Caroni flails sold in America are not likely to be heavy duty in the first place. I'd say medium duty at best. I equate heavy duty with something the highway department would use. So if you're wanting "heavy" in the description of what you're shopping for, Caroni might not be the best choice.

//greg//

 

[jgrreed]

Hi,

My Caroni has served me well. I've not been super hard on it, but it's mowed lots of 1" saplings, and mulched up many 4" fallen (dried) branches. It's dinged a few rocks. It still does a nice job on the pastures after that.

I guess if you're going to bounce it around really hard, maybe a heavy duty mott or woods might be better, but it'll also be 3x the price!!

-J.

 

[leonz]

Another couple months until I can get my Mahindra 5035 HST. Had already picked a rotary cutter and all...and then I read the massive thread on flail mowers and I think that's the direction I'm heading.

Curious though, since there are so many types of blades depending on the type of cut you want, is it OK to change the blade type to suit the job?

For example, could I put on a set of of the heavier hammer types to do the initial whacking of the weeds and brush and then switch over to the slicer or cup types for a nicer cut the next time around?

It seems the heavier the blade type the less there are of them on the mower. Is this due to their size and weight? Are the mowers made specific to their task? In other words if I buy a medium to heavy duty model, will there only be enough connection points for the heavier, rougher cutting blades and not enough connections for the smaller, cleaner cutters to work right, or do you simply not use some of the connection points when using the bigger, heavier blades?


I don't have a lot of saplings or thicker, woodier type stuff to cut, it's primarily open field with thick, dense weeds. I do want to keep it mowed down to let the grass spread and look nice.

I would chat with Island Tractor and look at his flailmower pictures as he has two row rotor on his flailmower and it leaves a nice finish in heavy brush.

if you want a nice finish with a rough cut flail you have to over lap or mow in the opposite direction to slice up the clippings even more.

The B type rotor with the two rows of knives will work well for you as long as you maintain the proper P.T.O. engine speed and a slow enough ground speed to mulch it properly the first time as all you going to do otherwise is burn out belts and it will look like a bad haircut after a dry lightning storm YUCK!!

 

[sodamo]

I have the 68 inch Value Leader efgch175 flail from Betsco. It can use either 28 hammers or 56 grass Y blades. It has 28 mounting stations for either 1 hammer or 2 halves of the Y blade. I can change them out in an hour or so.

David

 

[beppington]

I have the 68 inch Value Leader efgch175 flail from Betsco. It can use either 28 hammers or 56 grass Y blades. It has 28 mounting stations for either 1 hammer or 2 halves of the Y blade. I can change them out in an hour or so.

David

David - Which provides a better lawn-type cut result, the hammers or Y-blades?

 

[leonz]

Not to hijack the thread and if you do not mind me butting in here Beppington:

The recutting ability is affected by the total cutting edge length offered along the front of the flailmower at any point in the mowing work

The longer side slicers permit the two row rotor to take advantage of the
height of cut by allowing the longer knive distance from the hanger hole to the bend of the side slicer knive to make up for the lack of knives when mowing with a two row flail mower rotor-but the two row unit will be working harder as it has many fewer knives to do the job requiring two revolutions to each single revolution of a 4 row flail mower rotor.


Using my case specifically the rotor has 4 rows of side slicers which allow it to cut and recut with little effort because each row has 32 side slicers with 3 inches of cutting edge exposed per pair of side slicers at any time.

The nice thing about a four row rotor is that you do not need a large can of
whoop A** to mow with when you are up to the recommended engine speed for the 540 R.P.M., integral implement(flail mower) The rotor though much smaller than mine is its own flywheel of sorts. I keep hoping that they will offer a flail mower rotor with the short knives to take advantage of the centrifugal force offered by a larger rotor to make mowing easier.

The side slicer knives I have pivot and also have a slotted mounting arrangement which allows them to become an airfoil which also creates lift in addition to the two air paddles located on the flail mowers rotor which lift the cuttings up and over the flail mower rotor.

The slower you travel with a flail mower with two or more rows of knives the finer the cut will be and a second pass will leave tiny clippings if your able
to maintain a mowing schedule.

A two row rotor will have slightly longer cutting edges per knive pair because the side slicers are stationary and only pivot (mine are 1.5 inches long) and clippings in heavy brush but there is no reason you cannot overlap slightly or reverse direction when mowing at the end to re-mow the same area. The second pass will put very little stress on the engine of your tractor if you have kept up with mowing. But if not mowing slower works very well.

Its a Potato, Potatoe kind of thing where either mower will do as long as you have the power to run it properly at the 540 RPM engine speed for the rear power take off.

 

[beppington]

The "Y" knives on my dad's Caroni TM1900BSC result in a "good" cut but not quite great, & not quite equal to a finish mower ... which is what I'd like, if possible.

I think that part of the reason is that the flail has less upward vacuum. And I think another reason is that the Y knives cut like this:

 

[sodamo]

David - Which provides a better lawn-type cut result, the hammers or Y-blades?

I wish I knew LOL

Seriously, when I had the hammers installed, I kinda abused them. We had a lot of pig damage and I used the hammers as "ground engaging" in those tore up areas. Did a great job smoothing things out while doing a great job on the grass. I say grass, but the reality we are talking a mowed pasture that grew from abandoned sugar cane fields. No seed, no fertilizer, just mow. I liked that with the hammers I could expand into uncut areas, even taking down the occasional guava or wainaku grass. I also did my share or rocks. I used the hammers until they were well worn and I didn't have any replacements for a broken one.

My first cut with the Y knifes and I was less impressed. I think because the grass was somewhat thin and less grown. I've been tempted to go back to hammers, but as that would require buying a complete set, I haven't. Now that I've used the Ys for more than a year, I feel better. Nice cut, especially in the thicker, tall stuff. I'm usually disappointed if I mow too soon or in the thinner, wispy stuff as it leaves a few stragglers, but I don't let it bother me. I've only replaced one Y, much more rock tolerant. I should flip them to the sharper side.

I have spent a little time wondering about scoops as I suspect they are sharper than the hammers, but I haven't found a set yet.

So, bottom line, I'm happy with both, but don't feel I've really used them in an apples to apples comparison. I really like my flail though. I was seriously looking to buy a 48in Caroni with F rotor for my wife to use behind our CK30, but had a tremendous opportunity, small, very well maintained Scag Zcat from a neighbor for only 2K. The one time I used it, I wasn't more impressed than my flail cut.

Sorry I couldn't give a more clear cut answer.

David

 

[sodamo]

The "Y" knives on my dad's Caroni TM1900BSC result in a "good" cut but not quite great, & not quite equal to a finish mower ... which is what I'd like, if possible.

I think that part of the reason is that the flail has less upward vacuum. And I think another reason is that the Y knives cut like this:

<img src="http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=264506"/>

YES, good illustration. I'd say that shows exactly how my Y knives cut, even the stragglers . Mine hang from the rotor, just a round bolt, no slot, o I really don't think I get the airfoil effect Leonz talks about..

David

 

[kthompson]

The "Y" knives on my dad's Caroni TM1900BSC result in a "good" cut but not quite great, & not quite equal to a finish mower ... which is what I'd like, if possible.

I think that part of the reason is that the flail has less upward vacuum. And I think another reason is that the Y knives cut like this:

View attachment 264506

I tried a Caroni and took it back for that reason. It is my impression since then the theory is it will rotate fast enough the centrifugal force causes the cutter to sort of move up on the rounded hander and thus change the angle the angled blade is cutting at to where it is leaivng a flat cut. The theory may be good but did not work for me. I do like a flail mower. But not sure have really seen anyone used for true finish lawn cutting.You also have the issue of the roller being in contact as you turn or must lift cutter each time you make a major turn.

 

[leonz]

The side slicers on the Caroni are stationary and are unable to move to create the air foil to allow the cutting edge to become a horizontal wing.

This is why the cut on good turf takes a little more work but the finish rotor does not have this issue due to the high knive count.


The Caroni four row rotor/the F rotor/finish mower overcomes this issue with
the four rows of knives which constantly overlap and create a nice flat cut.

I am certainly hoping the Caroni folks add a front and rear tire option to allow the end user to make better use of their flail mowers of all types as adding the front and rear tires prevents the skids from gouging and the roller from possibly digging in after a gopher hole.


EDIT:

Kthompson,

If you do not mind me asking why did you feel that you had to lift the mower up every time you finished a lap?


We have lots of photos on the site here with folks using Mott mowers with the finish rotor and they have good results. The key to a nice finish on good or poor turf is high knive count on the rotor and the proper rotor speed at 540 rpm with an integral flail mower.


_________________________________________________________________
Once you go Flail you never go back:thumbsup::licking::drool:
Pronovost or not at all!!!:thumbsup::licking::drool:

 

[beppington]

I tried a Caroni and took it back for that reason. It is my impression since then the theory is it will rotate fast enough the centrifugal force causes the cutter to sort of move up on the rounded hander and thus change the angle the angled blade is cutting at to where it is leaivng a flat cut. The theory may be good but did not work for me. I do like a flail mower. But not sure have really seen anyone used for true finish lawn cutting.

I have used it on a lawn mixed with St. Augustine & Bahia grasses when the Bahia stalks had started exceeding the height of the St. Augustine, & the results were just what I drew: Good job, but not great ... leaves me wanting to go over it again hoping to get the Bahia stragglers the 2nd time.

You also have the issue of the roller being in contact as you turn or must lift cutter each time you make a major turn.

Both ends of the Caroni TM1900BSC roller are rounded, so no need to lift the flail when turning. It generally glides over terrain just fine without damage. Now you do need to make sure the front of the flail is not so low that the flail's side skids dig in when turning - Maybe that's what you meant? The skids would probably glide along the terrain without doing too much terrain damage it when going straight, but would usually dig in when turning, gouging the ground. The trick there is to make sure you lower your 3 point hitch to where the skids are level with the ground, not sitting on the ground. Of course even still a skid might occasionally touch the ground.

 

[beppington]

The side slicers on the Caroni are stationary and are unable to move to create the air foil to allow the cutting edge to become a horizontal wing.

This is why the cut on good turf takes a little more work but the finish rotor does not have this issue due to the high knive count.


The Caroni four row rotor/the F rotor/finish mower overcomes this issue with
the four rows of knives which constantly overlap and create a nice flat cut.

I am certainly hoping the Caroni folks add a front and rear tire option to allow the end user to make better use of their flail mowers of all types as adding the front and rear tires prevents the skids from gouging and the roller from possibly digging in after a gopher hole.


EDIT:

Kthompson,

If you do not mind me asking why did you feel that you had to lift the mower up every time you finished a lap?


We have lots of photos on the site here with folks using Mott mowers with the finish rotor and they have good results. The key to a nice finish on good or poor turf is high knive count on the rotor and the proper rotor speed at 540 rpm with an integral flail mower.

... and keeping the flail just about as low as possible without the knives touching the ground or grass root balls :thumbsup: