Little smokin and a stu stu stu studder!
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SPYDERLK
Super Star Member
- Joined
- Feb 28, 2006
- Messages
- 12,536
- Location
- VA
- Tractor
- JD2010, Kubota3450,2550, Mahindra 7520 w FEL w Skid Steer QC w/Tilt Tatch, & BH, BX1500
Im with Farmerboy on this based on your stated timing of the problems occurrence. I am extrapolating from the warmup injection advance system on the 7520 to, perhaps, one like it on your tractor. ... The timing of the injection pump is advanced electrically for about 20 minutes on startup, then falls back to the actual mechanical timing of the pump. I believe what you are seeing is a pump that was set up retarded and gives your engine some problems when the electric advance times out. I am surprised it happens in warm weather -- the 7520 gave a similar symptom only in the cool. A rather small turn of the pump toward advance cured it. I only moved mine a degree or so. Perhaps yours needs a little more.Well the dealer had my tractor for a little over 2 weeks and had about 6 hrs on it, but they said they could not make it act up. I brought it home used it the first day and it did not act up for me either. Got it out a week later and it has started to do it again. The only thing that has changed is I have added fuel to it. So all I can figure is I need to start getting my fuel from a different supplier and see if anything changes. I have a hard time believing it is the supplier b/c many farmers and construction companies use their fuel but maybe my tractor is pickyeither way I guess it is a starting point.
It just gets on my nerves that it would not act up at the dealer (granted they may have only started it up and let it sit there above idle waiting for it to show signs of malfunction vs. actually putting it under a load and using it.) b/c now I have wasted $250 in fuel and $100 in labor rates as they said they could not issue a service warranty since it showed no signs of malfunction.
Ohh well I guess I'll just start w/ the fuel and go from there.
If anyone has any other insights I am more than willing to hear them out.
Thanks
...I think timing advances momentarily after each start, so try a quick cutoff and restart when it happens. If the problem vanishes for a bit it fits the surmise.:confused3:
larry
Thankyou all for the info
I just came in from advancing the timing but have a reunion to attend today:mur: so I dont have the time to warm it up and use it.
I only changed it by about 1/32 of an inch so it may not be enough but I can always go more, I just dont want to advance it too much.
I'll keep ya'll posted on the results as I go.
BTW: ENG18LT have your swivel and patience ready if you have your loader on there still and you are going to mess with your timing b/c that back bolt is a reach and a half:2cents:
I just came in from advancing the timing but have a reunion to attend today:mur: so I dont have the time to warm it up and use it.
I only changed it by about 1/32 of an inch so it may not be enough but I can always go more, I just dont want to advance it too much.
I'll keep ya'll posted on the results as I go.
BTW: ENG18LT have your swivel and patience ready if you have your loader on there still and you are going to mess with your timing b/c that back bolt is a reach and a half:2cents:
ENG18LT
Platinum Member
Will do, thanks for the heads up.
SPYDERLK
Super Star Member
- Joined
- Feb 28, 2006
- Messages
- 12,536
- Location
- VA
- Tractor
- JD2010, Kubota3450,2550, Mahindra 7520 w FEL w Skid Steer QC w/Tilt Tatch, & BH, BX1500
While it may be just enuf to stop the effect, it probably is not enuf to be right. I think the warm up advance is more than the equivalent of 1/8". I went about 1/16 and altho the cold stack effect after the warmup timeout went away I think another 1/32 would be right. I notice the tractor has a little less power after the auto advance times out.
larry
Ok I'll probably try it out and advance it a little at a time untill it seems right its probably gonna be a multi-trial deal.
Anyways its fun to contort my wrist into that tight little area
!!! Haha ima contortionwrist
ENG18LT
Platinum Member
Could you post a picture or two of the pump?
Well just a finalization to this post.
It seems as though adjusting the timing has done the trick.
I have not had any issues since and everything seems fine.
Thanks to all whom have read and contributed to this post and hopefully it may help a few others out there.
It seems as though adjusting the timing has done the trick.
I have not had any issues since and everything seems fine.
Thanks to all whom have read and contributed to this post and hopefully it may help a few others out there.
cowsmowmygrass
Bronze Member
Your thread was very informative to my issue that I have posted on a different thread.
The symptoms are similar, but not exact. I post here to ask if you think I also need to pursue the timing. The MOST similar point is that it only happens under a steady load for 10+ minutes. This is somewhat a chronic issue as it began on the day they delivered my brand new machine in Dec 2006. The dealer, Top Flight, came, picked it up, changed the screen filter in the tank and chewed me out for using dyed diesel from my drum. I took it, bit my lip and filtered every refill thereafter. The latest trip to dealer was at my own expense. I told them to change the in tank filter along with my list of other maintenance and replacing the starter. They did not change the in tank screen, even argued with me in the parking lot as I was picking it up, that I didn't know what I was talking about - there wa no such thing as an in-tank filter. Of course, I couldn't get it to fail at the dealership without having a way to place it under a load. The next 2 or 3 posts contain the failure of my 2006 6500 4X4.
The symptoms are similar, but not exact. I post here to ask if you think I also need to pursue the timing. The MOST similar point is that it only happens under a steady load for 10+ minutes. This is somewhat a chronic issue as it began on the day they delivered my brand new machine in Dec 2006. The dealer, Top Flight, came, picked it up, changed the screen filter in the tank and chewed me out for using dyed diesel from my drum. I took it, bit my lip and filtered every refill thereafter. The latest trip to dealer was at my own expense. I told them to change the in tank filter along with my list of other maintenance and replacing the starter. They did not change the in tank screen, even argued with me in the parking lot as I was picking it up, that I didn't know what I was talking about - there wa no such thing as an in-tank filter. Of course, I couldn't get it to fail at the dealership without having a way to place it under a load. The next 2 or 3 posts contain the failure of my 2006 6500 4X4.
cowsmowmygrass
Bronze Member
My attempts at replacing the filter with the part number 001081778R93 was unsuccessful. The filter has a felt grommet on the open end that seems to be the amount of distance I was prevented from pushing the filter up into the housing.
Slept on it. Put on my reading glasses, got in good light and viewed into that can. There was what possibly was the lower felt grommet from the old filter corroded and stuck in there. After careful extraction the old grommet came out and this WAS the distance needed to seat the new filter into the housing. AH! Big Red running again.
BUT, it only ran for about 20 minuted before missing and belching the gray smoke again. Another fuel clog?
I have replaced the in-tank screen filter and the primary can filter. Next, is the secondary can filter? This would be no big deal, just a repeat of the primary filter, BUT there is a tagged wire attached to the bolt on top of the filter. This must be to indicate when this filter bolt is ever removed. Well, I have to remove it to change the filter. The warranty is over anyway, so I see no harm.
Here I go again.
Slept on it. Put on my reading glasses, got in good light and viewed into that can. There was what possibly was the lower felt grommet from the old filter corroded and stuck in there. After careful extraction the old grommet came out and this WAS the distance needed to seat the new filter into the housing. AH! Big Red running again.
BUT, it only ran for about 20 minuted before missing and belching the gray smoke again. Another fuel clog?
I have replaced the in-tank screen filter and the primary can filter. Next, is the secondary can filter? This would be no big deal, just a repeat of the primary filter, BUT there is a tagged wire attached to the bolt on top of the filter. This must be to indicate when this filter bolt is ever removed. Well, I have to remove it to change the filter. The warranty is over anyway, so I see no harm.
Here I go again.
cowsmowmygrass
Bronze Member
Frustration for days as I have been diagnosing and changing fuel filters.
Now, the frustration becomes fear of serious problem.
Let me review the current situation:
1. All fuel filters I know of are brand new. 1 in-tank screen, 2 can filters
2. Fuel flows through all the way through the lines from tank to last banjo bolt on top of injection pump. The stream is steady. Every fuel checkpoint and banjo bolt sprays fuel when I break it open and hand pump.
3. Engine starts, runs fine, accelerate to PTO 540 rpm. Brush hog for 10 minutes and then sputtering and gray smoke. Once I continued until engine died. I opened hand pump. Resistance was on the upstroke, not the down. Continued pumping. Heard gurgling from fuel tank.
4. To test fuel cap venting, I left cap open and tried again. Finally, started. Ran 10 minutes brush hogging, then sputtering and smoke again. Must not be fuel cap.
Now what?
Does it sound like a vapor lock? What can cause a vapor lock?
Eager to hear any diagnostic theory and idea.
Now, the frustration becomes fear of serious problem.
Let me review the current situation:
1. All fuel filters I know of are brand new. 1 in-tank screen, 2 can filters
2. Fuel flows through all the way through the lines from tank to last banjo bolt on top of injection pump. The stream is steady. Every fuel checkpoint and banjo bolt sprays fuel when I break it open and hand pump.
3. Engine starts, runs fine, accelerate to PTO 540 rpm. Brush hog for 10 minutes and then sputtering and gray smoke. Once I continued until engine died. I opened hand pump. Resistance was on the upstroke, not the down. Continued pumping. Heard gurgling from fuel tank.
4. To test fuel cap venting, I left cap open and tried again. Finally, started. Ran 10 minutes brush hogging, then sputtering and smoke again. Must not be fuel cap.
Now what?
Does it sound like a vapor lock? What can cause a vapor lock?
Eager to hear any diagnostic theory and idea.
First off I feel I should get this said and out of the way. I am not a diesel mechanic! Therefore hopefully others that have much more experience on the issue itsself will weigh in. Now to start with what is the thread you started to which you explained the issues/symptoms. Also give the most info you can so everyone that may have the ability to help you can get a good idea of what is going on.
But lastly to answer the original question.
If you are of the ability to change the timing on your tractor then it would be a start. I would keep in mind the following:
1. Mark the original spot where the pump is set
2. Be sure to adjust in small amounts
3. Get as much info on/from tractor as possible (ie. checking fuel lines, filter, flow through fuel lines ect. and also a service manual never hurts)
I hate to tell you to go ahead and advance it as I have not messed with enough diesels to know if this is just a issue of too retarded timing or if it can be an issue with it being to advanced. All I can say is advancing the timing on my machine fixed the problem.
Good luck and keep on posting and hopfully someone will have some good info for you too.
But lastly to answer the original question.
If you are of the ability to change the timing on your tractor then it would be a start. I would keep in mind the following:
1. Mark the original spot where the pump is set
2. Be sure to adjust in small amounts
3. Get as much info on/from tractor as possible (ie. checking fuel lines, filter, flow through fuel lines ect. and also a service manual never hurts)
I hate to tell you to go ahead and advance it as I have not messed with enough diesels to know if this is just a issue of too retarded timing or if it can be an issue with it being to advanced. All I can say is advancing the timing on my machine fixed the problem.
Good luck and keep on posting and hopfully someone will have some good info for you too.
SSdoxie
Elite Member
I'm not at all familiar with this engine or fuel pump system, but you mentioned that the one time you let it dy and tried to prime with the lift pump handle there was resistance in up stroke not down. This indicates pressure on the back side of the diaphragm pump. Several years ago I ran into a number of Duetz engines that would run out of power for lack of fuel after running 1/2 hour or so. We finally figured out the supplier of the lift pump had assembled the base housing of the pump 180 degrees out. The oil weep hole in back side of the pump was at the top of the pump instead of on the bottom side, this allowed the engine oil to splash in and lubricate as intended but oil could not drain out and caused a pressure on the diaphragm so it could not stoke completely and had lower fuel supply. Just a thought you might want to check out.
