Using A 750 Gal. Tank for Domestic Water Use.

   / Using A 750 Gal. Tank for Domestic Water Use. #1  

scesnick

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As some of you know I have had water issues at my house for sometime now. I live on a farm with a very nice creek running about 500ft from my house. We drilled a well when we built the house 11yrs ago but it is terrible iron water.

So, I dug a large hole in my creek and put a submersible pump in the hole and it works great until july/august when the flow is close to zero. I then revert back to the terrible iron water and wifey is not hapy with that while thing. I do have a few very nice and clean small springs that run all yr round but they are too far to run the pump wire to. So, here is my plan. And I hope someone has some ideas to help me along.

I want to bury the 750 gallon thank down where the submersible pump is in the creek. I would then put the pump in the buried tank. I would then pipe the water from the creek (about 10 ft at the most) to the tank. It runs with gobs of water all winter and spring But it dries up pretty good in the dead of summer. I would then run 3/4 poly pipe from the spring that is about 500yrds away and thankfully uphill, to the tank for the dead of summer when the creek is dry. it probably runs about 3-4 gallons a minute 365 days a yr.

My problem is wintertime. Any engineers out there want to chime in on how to keep this from freezing up? Not so much the spring water, but the creek water and the tank??
 
   / Using A 750 Gal. Tank for Domestic Water Use. #2  
We have terrible iron too, they make systems that remove iron. Not trying to talk you out of engineering a water works project, just a thought.
 
   / Using A 750 Gal. Tank for Domestic Water Use. #3  
My suggestion is get a great water filter. There are multi stage filters that darn near eliminate everything from water.
I would be more worried about sitting water in the ground and what the ramification of tat would be.

Legionnaires' disease would be one thought although slight still a concern with stagnant water.

Water heaters, cooling towers, and warm, stagnant water can provide ideal conditions for the growth of the organism.
 
   / Using A 750 Gal. Tank for Domestic Water Use.
  • Thread Starter
#4  
I guess i should have mentioned that I tried just about every iron filter system out there. They work for a few months then they start tp give out. My iron content is off the charts and it just seems to overwhelm any type of filter system.

I guess I should also mention that I already do filter the creek water with a 5 micron "Big Blue" filter and a 12GPM UV light to take care of any nastyness like Cat_Driver mentioned.

I would have water running in and out of this tank continously. so, it wouldn't sit and get stagnant... (hopefully)
 
   / Using A 750 Gal. Tank for Domestic Water Use. #5  
If I had a spring that ran that much 24/7 that and only that would go into the tank then I would pump it into a second tank close to the house where it would be filtered and chlorinated then pump as needed for the house. Spring water is usually of better quality than river/stream water. Either way it should be filtered and chlorinated at a minimum. I would have the water bacteria tested after setting up the system before human consumption.
 
   / Using A 750 Gal. Tank for Domestic Water Use.
  • Thread Starter
#6  
If I had a spring that ran that much 24/7 that and only that would go into the tank then I would pump it into a second tank close to the house where it would be filtered and chlorinated then pump as needed for the house. Spring water is usually of better quality than river/stream water. Either way it should be filtered and chlorinated at a minimum. I would have the water bacteria tested after setting up the system before human consumption.
I wish I could do that but I just plan on running the pipe from the spring above ground. it is 500yrds from the proposed tank and VERY rocky and and wooded so burying the line is not a option. If i wasn't in a cold climate this would have easily been my first choice also.
 
   / Using A 750 Gal. Tank for Domestic Water Use. #7  
Can you put a valve at the spring and just before it freezes drain the line and close the valve Bury the tank below the frost line and it should never freeze.
 
   / Using A 750 Gal. Tank for Domestic Water Use. #8  
i been having a hard time, replying to thread. due to use of using stream water for drinking water / human consumption. in a single day, you may have bacteria, you may end up with oil, to viruses to other going through that stream. dead fish, other dead animals dieing and rotting in stream not to mention peeing and pooing in the stream, and if you do not have a proper filter setup / sterilization setup that you can routinely and easily check. you are setting yourself up for a variety of health issues. anything that happens up stream of you, will greatly effect your drinking water...

have you thought about trying to drill a couple more wells at different locations on your property, and have them drilled at different depths. to see about getting into different water tables?

i am not saying getting water from a stream can not be done, but the filtration and setup for it can get rather expensive, pending on local county, state, federal laws, and getting things passed via "health department".

have you actually contacted some water filtration companies, local and far away? and had test samples taken of your well water. with reports so companies can look at things and set something up for you? pending on size of filters and what they used to remove iron and nasties in water, can determined length between cleanings and if you need to buy anything on a regular basis.

with above stated, what have you tried for dealing with your well water? and why has the given type of filter / filters failed?

around here, every few years, they slowly make progress in running water lines out into rural areas. allowing folks to choose between keeping well or hooking up to the water companies water line. have you double check to see were and how far you are away from a water line hook up?


=================
was about to hit "post quick reply" button but then saw "similar threads" with your name as thread starters. and skimmed through them.

seems every time you get a thread going, you end up getting frustrated to point of exhaustion. and then try again a year later.

you will want to get your pipe burried, you say a bunch of rocks and tree roots. which most likely getting a backhoe or small mini excavator out there, and digging up the rocks, and digging through / cutting through tree roots.

if you do not do above. the water line will be subjected to a lot of things. that can damage the water line, that could poke a hole in the water line. and siphon more crud into the water line. when the pump turns off.

you might need to place main water line in another pipe if above ground. (depends on health department and local codes / regs for your area.

getting the pipe burred below the frost line for your area, protects the pipe from freezing. as soon as you place water line above frost line for your area, you are subject to freezing issues.

when you get below frost line depth for your area, the ground will generally hold temperatures around 55F degrees.

moving water = less likely to freeze up in a pipe. reason why many folks turn a faucet or like on in there house to keep a slow trickle of water moving through pipes to keep pipes from freezing solid.

if you bury a tank, the tank will need to be approved for buried into the ground. with most likely man hole / man holes, to get into the tank and check on it. if you do a search for "septic tanks" on google. then get on various manufacture / dealers websites. you can normally click over to other links on there websites for various types of large size water tanks, some concrete some re-enforced plastic, to other. trying to search just for "water tank" or bulk tank. normally results in little containers that hold 10 gallons or less of water.

if placed above ground, pending on shape of tank, size of tank, and any internal baffles inside of it. it could be fairly easy to install some piping, to install an "air lift pump" using a larger size aquarium air pump. to circulate the water around in the tank. or using a small fountain pump. to circulate water around inside the tank. again shape and size and any internal baffles inside of the tank. can make a large difference. in circulating water in the tank to keep water from freezing up.

if placed above ground, it would most likely be good idea, to insulate tank, and put some sort of metal sheeting or plywood around it heck even a small shed. so the insulation does not get torn up by winds, sun, animals, bugs, etc...

if placed above ground, pending on tank setup, it might be possible to run a small tank heater for animals water tanks, to keep ice from forming in the tank.

==============
some other issues, you may end in, and having to abid by, is amount of water you use, and may be subject to having a meter placed on your water line. that comes from the creek. this may be required by local city / township / water rights. and everything setup so there is a min chance a leak happening. and not start a siphon or pumping water out of the creek. due to a major leak. and causing problems for folks down below you.

placing water line plastic to metal does not really matter just laying across the ground. sounds like a large fines just waiting to happen. what ever you end up doing is going to be costly. and it might be well worth contacting some local plumbers / companies and have them come out and get some bids. hopefully some of them will have done this before in your area. and be more up on codes / regs for your area. and be able to help you out, or if you have equipment / want to do portions of it DIY style. they may be willing to work with you. and at min hopefully get a good idea of pipe sizes and tanks, etc... that can work for you.
 
   / Using A 750 Gal. Tank for Domestic Water Use. #9  
We have a well that produces 25 gal a min. but it smelled like sulfur so we have a simple dual water system from Lowes...not expensive ..less than $100 if you install it yourself...it has 2 filters , a stage 1 and the stage 2 , the filters are the same but in a series to be sure to get all bad things out...Since we put the filters in we can no longer smell any sulfur...it is great...I would highly recommend you at least try that before drinking out of a stream...There are different filters , all are inexpensive and last us 6 mos...2 are usually no more than $15.00...but be sure to buy the ones that take the iron out or sulfur smell out...some don't ..We found the filters that are a black mesh..do not work like the white fiber filters which are even less expensive....Good luck..
 
   / Using A 750 Gal. Tank for Domestic Water Use.
  • Thread Starter
#10  
boggen,
The stream in question originates on my property. It is crystal clear. My grandfather drank it unfiltered for 50 yrs before me. The small town down the mountain uses this water in their resevoir and have done so forever. They test it twice a yr and he even sends me a copy of the test. I also filter this water and have a UV light on it as an extra precaution. I would be more nervous drinking city water than this water. Drilling multiple wells is not really an option. Especially at about 7k a well in my area. Tired of throwing money at this well when I have another clean water source 500ft form the house.

As far as filtering the crappy well water, i already explained that i put multiple filtering systems on the well. To the tune of about 8k. Everyone I have tried has the lastest and greatest and it will work for sure...... and it does, for about 4-6 months..
City water in my area? ---- My nearest neighbor is about 3 miles down the mountian. my driveway/road is 2.5 miles that I maintain. nearest town is about 12 miles.Safe to say city water isn't coming anytime soon. Codes? I live far enough back in the sticks that codes are not an issue. It is pretty much do what you gotta do to get it done.

So, I dug a hole in the creek, put in a submersible and buried the line under the frost line up to my house. It works great, nice clean water, and most importantly, wifey is super happy.

The only issue I have is that in the dog days of summer it dries up and we have to go back to the iron filled well for about 4-6 weeks. This thread is simply to get a few ideas on how to run a spring (which is on the other side of my property) into this tank in the summer so I wouldn't have to use the iron well at all. This would be the line that is too much of a hassle to bury. It would be summer use only anyway.

However, we have been getting a boatload of rain so far, so it looks like I should be good to go this summer..
 
   / Using A 750 Gal. Tank for Domestic Water Use. #11  
boggen,
The stream in question originates on my property. It is crystal clear. My grandfather drank it unfiltered for 50 yrs before me. The small town down the mountain uses this water in their resevoir and have done so forever. They test it twice a yr and he even sends me a copy of the test. I also filter this water and have a UV light on it as an extra precaution. I would be more nervous drinking city water than this water. Drilling multiple wells is not really an option. Especially at about 7k a well in my area. Tired of throwing money at this well when I have another clean water source 500ft form the house.

As far as filtering the crappy well water, i already explained that i put multiple filtering systems on the well. To the tune of about 8k. Everyone I have tried has the lastest and greatest and it will work for sure...... and it does, for about 4-6 months..
City water in my area? ---- My nearest neighbor is about 3 miles down the mountian. my driveway/road is 2.5 miles that I maintain. nearest town is about 12 miles.Safe to say city water isn't coming anytime soon. Codes? I live far enough back in the sticks that codes are not an issue. It is pretty much do what you gotta do to get it done.

So, I dug a hole in the creek, put in a submersible and buried the line under the frost line up to my house. It works great, nice clean water, and most importantly, wifey is super happy.

The only issue I have is that in the dog days of summer it dries up and we have to go back to the iron filled well for about 4-6 weeks. This thread is simply to get a few ideas on how to run a spring (which is on the other side of my property) into this tank in the summer so I wouldn't have to use the iron well at all. This would be the line that is too much of a hassle to bury. It would be summer use only anyway.

However, we have been getting a boatload of rain so far, so it looks like I should be good to go this summer..

That is because ALL filter systems have to be cleaned or filters replaced on a regular basis. Six months for as much iron as you say seems pretty good to me. If it were me, I would just plan on replacing all filters every 3-4 months, and call it good. You might even be able to use a sand filter (as in pool type) as a pre-filter to help with the life of the other filter cores. The sand filter DOES need about a monthly back wash though to keep it going. It might even need it more frequently if it gets clogged sooner.

As for the length of your lines, I agree with the others, if the water and electric are not put underground now, you will have nothing but future problems. Counting the depth my well pump is set to, my run is over 300yds, and have had zero issues for 2 years so far, and do not expect any other than normal wear.

Just size the electric wires to get the job done, and use either 1" or 1 1/4" line to supply your tank. Anything smaller will lose a LOT of pressure in a long run. You could even run a dual tank system, with an intermediate tank/pump halfway to the main one. Personally I wouldn't care who had drank from the well for how long, I would have it tested before my wife and kids were drinking it. Do you know how many ground water sources have been polluted in the last 50years? I think the possibility of contamination from some outside source is WAY to great to trust your families safety with.

And that goes double for the creek water. The possibility of surface sources getting into that water is HUGE. These guys are giving you advice based on a LOT of experience.
 
   / Using A 750 Gal. Tank for Domestic Water Use. #12  
Your fathers colon in not your colon. He more than likely had a lot more immunities built up than you do. Nothing personal, but I bet if you had sent him to mexico he would have come home with a smile. I dare you to do the same ;-)

This all said, there is a reason that backpackers take pills to clean out stream water. Underground water has "hopefully" been filtered by the surrounding soil. stream water is exposed to a lot of stuff and is unfiltered.

But if you insist, I would place your system deep below the frost line, from stem to stern. also, 750 gallons is not very much. With global warmin, and yes, yes, I do believe there is global warming, you are basing your future water happiness on an unreliable source. I would hedge my bet at 1500 gallons minimum.

As for your filtration of your well water. What a bummer. And filtering it is not cheap if you are going for a whole house filter.... But it can be done and it is done all the time... Probably for the same investment as your underground system.
 
   / Using A 750 Gal. Tank for Domestic Water Use. #13  
If I understand things, the run from the springs to the tank will be gravity fed, and the tank is physically between the spring and the house, with lotsa room for any surplus water to run to the creek without causing a problem. I assume that you already have the tank in the ground ......
Why not clean out the tank (flush with chlorine) then let it fill with runoff from the spring. The sump pump will then pump it to the house. If you can dump (overflow)the surplus water and keep flow in the pipe during the winter, there is a good chance that it won't freeze in the frost. We get 30 below Celsius on a regular basis, but once the small valleys get snow covered there is still water flowing in the bottom of them. If you buy good quality plastic pipe, it won't be damaged even if it does freeze (the cheap stuff will just split)
 
   / Using A 750 Gal. Tank for Domestic Water Use.
  • Thread Starter
#14  
That is because ALL filter systems have to be cleaned or filters replaced on a regular basis. Six months for as much iron as you say seems pretty good to me. If it were me, I would just plan on replacing all filters every 3-4 months, and call it good. You might even be able to use a sand filter (as in pool type) as a pre-filter to help with the life of the other filter cores. The sand filter DOES need about a monthly back wash though to keep it going. It might even need it more frequently if it gets clogged sooner.

As for the length of your lines, I agree with the others, if the water and electric are not put underground now, you will have nothing but future problems. Counting the depth my well pump is set to, my run is over 300yds, and have had zero issues for 2 years so far, and do not expect any other than normal wear.

Just size the electric wires to get the job done, and use either 1" or 1 1/4" line to supply your tank. Anything smaller will lose a LOT of pressure in a long run. You could even run a dual tank system, with an intermediate tank/pump halfway to the main one. Personally I wouldn't care who had drank from the well for how long, I would have it tested before my wife and kids were drinking it. Do you know how many ground water sources have been polluted in the last 50years? I think the possibility of contamination from some outside source is WAY to great to trust your families safety with.

And that goes double for the creek water. The possibility of surface sources getting into that water is HUGE. These guys are giving you advice based on a LOT of experience.

The lines are already underground, functional and working like a charm. It gets down to -20 degrees here on a regular basis in the winter. It is a total no brainer to put the waterline to the house underground. I think people are a bit confused about this.

Again, I have tried the filtering systems. Yes, I know about and tried sand filters, pyrolox, terminox birm and a few other types of media. did the auto backflush, manual flush even dabbed in the salt sytems... So trust me when I say i tried about all the filtering systems out there, maintained them correctly, even had the Rainsoft guy try to maintain them and they still didn't have any longivity at all. Filtering was my first choice, as it would be with anyone else in this situation. I did keep my chlorine injection, 5 micron filter and UV light to protect against any 'surface sources".

this post is about how to properly bury and weatherize a 750 gallon tank down by the submersible pump that is in the creek in order to run a summertime only 1/2 line above ground from a natural spring to this buried tank. this way when the creek dries up in august I will have water continually flowing from the spring into my tank.
Once the creek runs again, i will no longer need the spring water and can simply turn off the spring water.

tried to post a drawing but can't now for some reason.
My main question is about how to keep the tank from freezing.
 
   / Using A 750 Gal. Tank for Domestic Water Use.
  • Thread Starter
#15  
Your fathers colon in not your colon. He more than likely had a lot more immunities built up than you do. Nothing personal, but I bet if you had sent him to mexico he would have come home with a smile. I dare you to do the same ;-)

This all said, there is a reason that backpackers take pills to clean out stream water. Underground water has "hopefully" been filtered by the surrounding soil. stream water is exposed to a lot of stuff and is unfiltered.

But if you insist, I would place your system deep below the frost line, from stem to stern. also, 750 gallons is not very much. With global warmin, and yes, yes, I do believe there is global warming, you are basing your future water happiness on an unreliable source. I would hedge my bet at 1500 gallons minimum.

As for your filtration of your well water. What a bummer. And filtering it is not cheap if you are going for a whole house filter.... But it can be done and it is done all the time... Probably for the same investment as your underground system.

As I explained to boggen in my previous post. This water originates on my property, is crystal clear, is used daily by the town below me in their reservoir. So I am essentually drinking the exact same water as they are except my water is filtered even more than theirs. I run it through a UV light and chlorine injection system just to be extra safe. This water is also test by the small town and the results are mailed to me. I can guarantee you it is cleaner than the water coming out of your faucet right now.
I have two children, I am not about to put them in harms way.
I am primarily posting a question about how to properly bury and winterize a proposed tank for backup water from a spring
 
   / Using A 750 Gal. Tank for Domestic Water Use.
  • Thread Starter
#16  
If I understand things, the run from the springs to the tank will be gravity fed, and the tank is physically between the spring and the house, with lotsa room for any surplus water to run to the creek without causing a problem. I assume that you already have the tank in the ground ......
Why not clean out the tank (flush with chlorine) then let it fill with runoff from the spring. The sump pump will then pump it to the house. If you can dump (overflow)the surplus water and keep flow in the pipe during the winter, there is a good chance that it won't freeze in the frost. We get 30 below Celsius on a regular basis, but once the small valleys get snow covered there is still water flowing in the bottom of them. If you buy good quality plastic pipe, it won't be damaged even if it does freeze (the cheap stuff will just split)

Pat32rf
you are correct. Except the tank is not yet buried. I plan on putting it right beside the creek where the submersible pump is currently in the creek and working. The only reason I need the tank is to collect the spring water when the creek isn't running, which is only a few weeks a yr. usually. So, i plan on also piping the creek water the 5ft or so to the tank with an overflow for continual running water through the tank. I am goning to use some big 4 inch pvc to ensure a large volue of water from the creek in the fall/winter/spring to keep the water fresh in the tank.
 
   / Using A 750 Gal. Tank for Domestic Water Use. #17  
Koiphen.com and goto the pond and construction forum. many folks there that build large koi ponds. and do a lot of DIY filters. out of wide variety of tanks, from 10gallons to a few thousand gallon tanks. go through some of the SC (settling chamber) filter builds on koiphen. this would put you nearest to what would most likely work good long term. a settling chamber filter for a koi pond. allows water to spin around and stuff in the water should sink out of the water to the bottom of the tank. having a waste drain, in the bottom of the tank, allows you to flush the tank out with waste. but if you plan to do a "flow through" setup. were creek/spring water enters the tank, 24/7 and then exits the tank back to creek. you can run the waste drain pipe (located in the very bottom of the tank) back to the creek.

what above will do is allow stuff that is heavy enough to settle out to the bottom of the tank and get flushed back into the tank automatically, though you will most likely want to setup some sort of screened "waste drain" to keep stuff that might plug up the pipe that runs from the waste drain back to creek. from getting clogged up with something.

the constant water moving through the tank should keep ice from forming within the tank, exception the very top couple inches. in order to deal with this, come in "LOW" on the side of the tank, then use a 90 up. then a piece of pipe going upwards, then a 45 degree fitting. so the water coming into the tank and out of the 45 degree fitting "flumes" kinda makes waves at the surface of the water in the tank. if ya come into high with the inlet into tank, you can run into some headaches and possible redo of piping.

==================
how and were you setup the tank in regards to "elevation" can be a big one. and may allow you to get away without using a pump between spring/creek and the tank. and allow water to flow by gravity.

if you do not bury the tank and it stays above ground. AND the tank is built to be self supporting above ground. you can buy say 1/4" thick hard board insulation at local hardware stores that come in 8'x4' sheets. and they should bend enough to go around a cylinder shape tank without cracking. then if you want more protection for the hard board insulation. get some 1/4" plywood and do same thing as hard board insulation and wrap it around. then use some straps ((straps you might use for strapping something down to a trailer)) they will allow you to ratchet the straps tight. to hold everything nice and tight. and then fashion yourself some sort of top. the insulation helps to act like a wind break, and also helps reduce how fast the water will drop in temperatures.

as far as burring tank, if you do get it below frost line including entire top, exception the man hole. that extends from top of tank to a inch or so above surrounding ground. then the tank itself should never have freezing issues. or less you have things setup were a good cold wind can blow through the lines and through the tank. then all bets might be off.
 
   / Using A 750 Gal. Tank for Domestic Water Use. #18  
I have seen many open spring fed systems, that are very rudimentary.... mostly just fifty five gal drums, with spring water going in, and of course a covering over the barrel....The outflow was about half way up the barrel, and gravity fed it to the cabins.....They were all pretty close to the cabins, and were trouble free+ had the best tasting water......I didn`t realize it got so cold in Maryland, although when I lived there near Washington it was cold.....I personally think if the pipe were flowing it wouldn`t freeze, and I don`t think it would freeze in your holding tank if you had the supply and exit well planned out..

This is just a thought, but if you got some of the spray foam, and coated the holding tank, I think it would help, but the water would need to be flowing, and on an esthetic note I would hide the holding tank in some way, as it sure wouldn`t be pretty...Tony
 
   / Using A 750 Gal. Tank for Domestic Water Use.
  • Thread Starter
#19  
......I didn`t realize it got so cold in Maryland, although when I lived there near Washington it was cold

I live in Garrett County Md. at 3,000 ft. right on top of a mountain. western Md. is a totally different world that the D.C. Baltimore area.
 
   / Using A 750 Gal. Tank for Domestic Water Use. #20  
think outside the box... for winterizing dont dig into the ground, do you have any better soil on the property?

run the pipe on the surface, put used foam insualtion over it, and fill on top?
 

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