Law Enforcement
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TripleR
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I was in Law Enforcement, but not a Police Officer and occasionally rode with them and sure know what you mean. I couldn't do it and sure am glad there are those who can.
jlawso21
Bronze Member
I was one of the first to reply to OP and made a comment about the weight of the cops and no one got tased. I have watched this thread and been interested to see how the opinions varied so much. Like much of American values and culture there seems to be an unraveling of things that once held us together.
Bear with me for a moment. I am 64 years old, a veteran, don't have a college degree but had a successful career in manufacturing. Recently I had a niece whose life came apart. She was living with an older man, he was selling drugs. He broke her jaw so badly it was wired shut for 6 weeks. He was very controlling of her every move. She also had a DUI and a weed possession charge and lost her license. The judge sent her to a counseling class that was mandatory. She drove to the counseling session, on a suspended license because they guy she was living with would not take her, and got stopped rolling through a stop sign. She was arrested and put in jail. No money. Her mother is incapable of helping her, so we were finally called as a last resort. We had to sneak into town and take her from protective services so he would not know where she was.
She is now living with us in another state, has two jobs and is saving money to pay us, the court, and other people she owes money back. It will take another year to get her life back together financially and maybe much longer to get her head straight.
We had to take her back to her hometown recently for a court date and what I saw made me sick. The whole justice system that I used to hold in high regard has become a jobs machine for corrupt politicians, police, judges and lawyers. We were in court for several hours (had to be early as we had a 4 hour drive) and watched the proceedings. There must have been 20 people in the court all the time, paid bailiffs, police, lawyers, stenographers etc, and of course, the judge. Of the 20 or so defendants that came before the judge, he lectured at least half of them on the need to "pay their lawyer". (most of the defendants were indigent). Who the **** is the judge to lecture people to pay their lawyers?
Here is my point: most of these people couldn't put a dime in a parking meter. My niece is penniless. And yet here is a tax paid jobs program trying to extract money from the poorest of the poor. It was truly nauseating. I left that court house ashamed of what I was involved in, as a citizen. The criminal justice system has become nothing more than a self serving ponzi scheme for the system to take money from the public.
Now, before anyone goes ape on me; I know there are many honest judge, police, lawyers, etc. And if I have to have a lawyer I will hire one. But my god, the system we have created is so corrupt. READ THIS
'Debtors Prison' Run By Harpersville Municipal Court Shut Down
This is not far from where I live, the wealthiest county in Alabama, and they run a corrupt debtor's prison.
So, while I know there are honest cops and judges, it's hard to have much sympathy for a system that is becoming more and more corrupt and taking more and more resources from the citizens they are supposed to protect. And whether the individual cop knows it or not, he or she is part of that corrupt system. When people like me feel this way the politicians should be scared.
MY $.02
Bear with me for a moment. I am 64 years old, a veteran, don't have a college degree but had a successful career in manufacturing. Recently I had a niece whose life came apart. She was living with an older man, he was selling drugs. He broke her jaw so badly it was wired shut for 6 weeks. He was very controlling of her every move. She also had a DUI and a weed possession charge and lost her license. The judge sent her to a counseling class that was mandatory. She drove to the counseling session, on a suspended license because they guy she was living with would not take her, and got stopped rolling through a stop sign. She was arrested and put in jail. No money. Her mother is incapable of helping her, so we were finally called as a last resort. We had to sneak into town and take her from protective services so he would not know where she was.
She is now living with us in another state, has two jobs and is saving money to pay us, the court, and other people she owes money back. It will take another year to get her life back together financially and maybe much longer to get her head straight.
We had to take her back to her hometown recently for a court date and what I saw made me sick. The whole justice system that I used to hold in high regard has become a jobs machine for corrupt politicians, police, judges and lawyers. We were in court for several hours (had to be early as we had a 4 hour drive) and watched the proceedings. There must have been 20 people in the court all the time, paid bailiffs, police, lawyers, stenographers etc, and of course, the judge. Of the 20 or so defendants that came before the judge, he lectured at least half of them on the need to "pay their lawyer". (most of the defendants were indigent). Who the **** is the judge to lecture people to pay their lawyers?
Here is my point: most of these people couldn't put a dime in a parking meter. My niece is penniless. And yet here is a tax paid jobs program trying to extract money from the poorest of the poor. It was truly nauseating. I left that court house ashamed of what I was involved in, as a citizen. The criminal justice system has become nothing more than a self serving ponzi scheme for the system to take money from the public.
Now, before anyone goes ape on me; I know there are many honest judge, police, lawyers, etc. And if I have to have a lawyer I will hire one. But my god, the system we have created is so corrupt. READ THIS
'Debtors Prison' Run By Harpersville Municipal Court Shut Down
This is not far from where I live, the wealthiest county in Alabama, and they run a corrupt debtor's prison.
So, while I know there are honest cops and judges, it's hard to have much sympathy for a system that is becoming more and more corrupt and taking more and more resources from the citizens they are supposed to protect. And whether the individual cop knows it or not, he or she is part of that corrupt system. When people like me feel this way the politicians should be scared.
MY $.02
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20 20. You're missing the point. Most people wouldn't even show up for work if you told them that is what was going to happen to them during the course of their day.
And no I absolutely was not being dramatic in my post. Each of those incidents are factual. I have been in law enforcement for 13 years. I work in a small city of 38,000 and what I described in my post is a common occurrence. Can many people say they have been spit in the face by someone with HIV or been bitten by someone with Hep C? Not many can claim being subjected to that in their job. Has anyone in the course of their job had human feces on their hands and uniform because they had to wrestle with a lunatic on bath salts who covered themselves in their own feces for some ridiculous reason? Not many people in society have to tolerate this in their jobs. Yet I show up for work every day. No I'm not corrupt. I'm not raking in the money with my high salary. Unless you consider $38,000 a lot of money.
The point was there is a group of people who tolerate the abuse every day for very little benefit. Yet people still make assumptions about the job and assume we are all corrupt and drunk with power. Yes there are a bunch of idiots in the profession who shouldn't even be given a whistle let alone a gun. But until someone can figure out how to weed those out, please don't lump us all into the same category as them.
Okay, I'll get off the cross now because winter is coming and we need the wood.
Domush
Platinum Member
Thanks for the thoughtful reply, Rich. I do have a few comments.
Are there any direct ways people outside of the system can leverage to help weed out the bad apples when we, the non-blue public, encounter them? Is there even a limit to the number of complaints a LEO can get before they are automatically fired, or do they just add up and become a challenge as to who can piss on the public the most? I've seen some police who try their best to make even a stiff fine feel better and those who try their hardest to make a reminder message as painful, intimidating and harassing as possible. What can be done about the latter? What can be done to ensure the former stick around and get recognized?
As for the meeting puffed up people in all professions, respectfully, all professions don't involve threatening death. And make no mistake, every law is the threat of death. Police are the ones tasked to ensure people bend to the will of it or be killed, which makes law enforcement hiring and retention practices vastly more important when it comes to weeding out problems before they have a chance to be problems. An unreasonable car mechanic or lawyer can be fired on the spot. A crazy, arrogant cop is a menace to society at large.
I respectfully disagree. The badge is exactly license to kill. Laws are the threat of death. If you want an example, try refusing what a cop 'asks' you to do. I won't expect to see you ever post an outcome.. maybe your widow can. Police are the weapon the government uses to perpetrate their ownership of the populace. Sure, you can say "we" voted in the laws, but it only takes 50.1% to control the lives of the 100%. Ensuring a speeding ticket encounter doesn't end up in death requires a little more ongoing employment screening than your average aunt or lawyer.
I empathize with the plight of police, having to watch the system get gamed over and over by professional crooks and liars. It must be exasperating to watch it happen time and again, and that is exactly why ongoing screening is needed. An officer can be top cop for 10 years running and on year 11, something snaps or he gets in financial trouble or can't pass up an easy score or runs across someone he just can't resist punishing himself. It happens to the best of us. Limits get reached. Recognizing that limit and expelling that officer when it happens is the critical part. Hoping "the system" annoys them enough to quit or retire is hardly better than praying to cure a cancer. Police are used to enforce important issues immediately, yet when the police are the issue, all the time in the world is allowed for a miraculous recovery. Just look at the number of police who become alcoholics compared to the rest of society, yet they are allowed to continue being police. That is simply *** backwards by any measure of sanity.
Put simply, if a cop can't, at any point, pass the same psych exam they took when they become a cop, they shouldn't continue being one. An annoyance to the good cops? Absolutely. Annoyances come with every job, the more important the job, the more annoyance there are. Try working in banking when you oversee billions of dollars or gaining access to bank vaults and money counting rooms. I know annoyances, too. When it comes to banks and who handles the big money, you must be an angel 24/7. The day I stopped being an angel (not even work related) was the last day I was employed in banking. Am I bitter about it? A little, but I understand why. The same standard, at minimum, should be held to police.
The second an officer loses objectivity and stops following the rules is the very second they should be dismissed and barred from law enforcement work. To think there should be some special "forgive me, I'm just stressed" standard for police is absurd, but there currently is. Police f-up all of the time, and good judgement is exactly what people need in law enforcement. If someone shows bad judgement, they are no longer qualified for the job. Time for different employment.
Your very first Sergeant was a hypocrite who worried more about PR and stroking egos than doing things correctly. Public acts deserve public review, private acts, private review. Anyone who worries about having their ego bruised by encouraging only positive review has no interest in fairness and is a hypocrite. Not exactly a good role model to extract life lessons from.
That is what we, outside the blue shirts, hope you can tell us. Even the ACLU has issues getting police departments to follow their own stated policies. You say you show up to work every day, but the issue is often a lack of police work inside the office as well as outside it. I'm not accusing you, personally, but as a whole police are given far more slaps on the wrist and continued employment for indiscretions than most fast food workers. Having crappy stuff happen while working is no excuse for being an AH or becoming corrupt and abusing the power loaned to you. Tons of jobs have low pay and are crappy. Very few involve ruining lives from one mistake, and the ones which do are by far more picky about the continued employment of those who make them.
Are there any direct ways people outside of the system can leverage to help weed out the bad apples when we, the non-blue public, encounter them? Is there even a limit to the number of complaints a LEO can get before they are automatically fired, or do they just add up and become a challenge as to who can piss on the public the most? I've seen some police who try their best to make even a stiff fine feel better and those who try their hardest to make a reminder message as painful, intimidating and harassing as possible. What can be done about the latter? What can be done to ensure the former stick around and get recognized?
As for the meeting puffed up people in all professions, respectfully, all professions don't involve threatening death. And make no mistake, every law is the threat of death. Police are the ones tasked to ensure people bend to the will of it or be killed, which makes law enforcement hiring and retention practices vastly more important when it comes to weeding out problems before they have a chance to be problems. An unreasonable car mechanic or lawyer can be fired on the spot. A crazy, arrogant cop is a menace to society at large.
I respectfully disagree. The badge is exactly license to kill. Laws are the threat of death. If you want an example, try refusing what a cop 'asks' you to do. I won't expect to see you ever post an outcome.. maybe your widow can. Police are the weapon the government uses to perpetrate their ownership of the populace. Sure, you can say "we" voted in the laws, but it only takes 50.1% to control the lives of the 100%. Ensuring a speeding ticket encounter doesn't end up in death requires a little more ongoing employment screening than your average aunt or lawyer.
I empathize with the plight of police, having to watch the system get gamed over and over by professional crooks and liars. It must be exasperating to watch it happen time and again, and that is exactly why ongoing screening is needed. An officer can be top cop for 10 years running and on year 11, something snaps or he gets in financial trouble or can't pass up an easy score or runs across someone he just can't resist punishing himself. It happens to the best of us. Limits get reached. Recognizing that limit and expelling that officer when it happens is the critical part. Hoping "the system" annoys them enough to quit or retire is hardly better than praying to cure a cancer. Police are used to enforce important issues immediately, yet when the police are the issue, all the time in the world is allowed for a miraculous recovery. Just look at the number of police who become alcoholics compared to the rest of society, yet they are allowed to continue being police. That is simply *** backwards by any measure of sanity.
Put simply, if a cop can't, at any point, pass the same psych exam they took when they become a cop, they shouldn't continue being one. An annoyance to the good cops? Absolutely. Annoyances come with every job, the more important the job, the more annoyance there are. Try working in banking when you oversee billions of dollars or gaining access to bank vaults and money counting rooms. I know annoyances, too. When it comes to banks and who handles the big money, you must be an angel 24/7. The day I stopped being an angel (not even work related) was the last day I was employed in banking. Am I bitter about it? A little, but I understand why. The same standard, at minimum, should be held to police.
The second an officer loses objectivity and stops following the rules is the very second they should be dismissed and barred from law enforcement work. To think there should be some special "forgive me, I'm just stressed" standard for police is absurd, but there currently is. Police f-up all of the time, and good judgement is exactly what people need in law enforcement. If someone shows bad judgement, they are no longer qualified for the job. Time for different employment.
Your very first Sergeant was a hypocrite who worried more about PR and stroking egos than doing things correctly. Public acts deserve public review, private acts, private review. Anyone who worries about having their ego bruised by encouraging only positive review has no interest in fairness and is a hypocrite. Not exactly a good role model to extract life lessons from.
M1652 said:
That is what we, outside the blue shirts, hope you can tell us. Even the ACLU has issues getting police departments to follow their own stated policies. You say you show up to work every day, but the issue is often a lack of police work inside the office as well as outside it. I'm not accusing you, personally, but as a whole police are given far more slaps on the wrist and continued employment for indiscretions than most fast food workers. Having crappy stuff happen while working is no excuse for being an AH or becoming corrupt and abusing the power loaned to you. Tons of jobs have low pay and are crappy. Very few involve ruining lives from one mistake, and the ones which do are by far more picky about the continued employment of those who make them.
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Bird
Rest in Peace
So what do you think the individual officer should do? If all the honest ones quit, what do you think would happen?
And while I never heard a judge lecture anyone about paying his/her lawyer, we were told in law classes many, many years ago that the most common reason judges grant defense attorneys' requests to postpone a trial is when the attorney tells the judge "I haven't been paid yet." That's not one of the statutory reasons for delaying a trial, and I have no idea if that's still done, but I wouldn't be surprised.
TripleR
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I continue to be surprised by the vitriol displayed toward the police. I have run across bad police officers, but they are in the minority. Some of the worst I have seen have been the small poorly paid departments where there is basically a revolving door with the good officers getting their foot in the door then leaving for a better job, poor ones being fired and mediocre remaining. The few good ones were retired military or state officers who just wanted to serve their local community and supplement their income.
As to the high costs of the indigent person being constantly told to pay their lawyer, this is not uncommon as lawyers like anyone else need to be paid for their work; same goes for everyone else. If those who break the law don't pay for the process the taxpayers will.
There are rules on fines, costs, inability to pay etc., read Bearden v Georgia for information.
In the courts in which I was familiar, there was a procedure for having costs etc. "set aside" if, after a time and reasonable attempts were made the person was unable.
My first job was as a prisoner/defendant advocate. After seeing my preconceptions were not accurate, I began working in the "system" keeping in mind the goal should always be fair treatment for all.
It is certainly not without its problems and I am down several thousand dollars and counting over an issue with a family member and still unwilling to condemn the whole thing.
As to the high costs of the indigent person being constantly told to pay their lawyer, this is not uncommon as lawyers like anyone else need to be paid for their work; same goes for everyone else. If those who break the law don't pay for the process the taxpayers will.
There are rules on fines, costs, inability to pay etc., read Bearden v Georgia for information.
In the courts in which I was familiar, there was a procedure for having costs etc. "set aside" if, after a time and reasonable attempts were made the person was unable.
My first job was as a prisoner/defendant advocate. After seeing my preconceptions were not accurate, I began working in the "system" keeping in mind the goal should always be fair treatment for all.
It is certainly not without its problems and I am down several thousand dollars and counting over an issue with a family member and still unwilling to condemn the whole thing.
Domush
Platinum Member
Seeing as personal examples seem to resonate so well, let me share how few police are dismissed or even reprimanded, or even do their jobs at all:
I once had a guy steal my identity (those truly horrid stories you've read about.. one is mine). He rented a car in my name and was arrested in Atlanta for DUI. The arresting officer accepted his story of being me, arrested him as me and he was later bailed out as me. A year later I find I have a warrant for my arrest because of this. Easy mistake, right? The guy who stole my identity was black. I am a blonde haired, blue eyed white guy. What happened to the arresting officer? Not one thing. Even exceptional incompetence results in nothing. To this day I have to deal with issues regarding my license because, until I finally got a different license last year, he was still getting tickets in my name. I still have one in Boston which I can't get removed unless I show in some courthouse in Boston to get it removed. This is the incompetence which is ignored and allowed to slip by. Six figures in fraud.. ignored.
Someone said police aren't allowed to ignore felonies.. and who forces them to do something? Other police? I've had entire departments refuse to even file a report regarding this same thief when he wrote a $100,000 check on my account. I literally have the original check with his handwriting and nobody would touch it. I've walked into the SFPD main office with an entire briefcase full of evidence, including other DUI arrests under different names and never got a single person to copy and log it.
The guy finally did time when he tried to buy a car in my name (again) and the dealership called the police. After a couple of years on a four year sentence, he was back at it and my license was suspended for unpaid speeding tickets. I still, over a decade later, deal with the aftermath. This all could have been avoided if police took 5 minutes to look over the briefcase full of fraud and arrested the guy, or better yet, arrested the guy for claiming to be me, or even noticed he wasn't me, on the first DUI (when the ID theft first began, well before I was aware of it) in Atlanta.
This is the "good, reliable police" I hear blanket praised so often. Do I hate all police? Of course not. Though I certainly haven't had a laundry list of good experiences, and the times I have relied on them it has cost me dearly. My life savings, to be exact.
I once had a guy steal my identity (those truly horrid stories you've read about.. one is mine). He rented a car in my name and was arrested in Atlanta for DUI. The arresting officer accepted his story of being me, arrested him as me and he was later bailed out as me. A year later I find I have a warrant for my arrest because of this. Easy mistake, right? The guy who stole my identity was black. I am a blonde haired, blue eyed white guy. What happened to the arresting officer? Not one thing. Even exceptional incompetence results in nothing. To this day I have to deal with issues regarding my license because, until I finally got a different license last year, he was still getting tickets in my name. I still have one in Boston which I can't get removed unless I show in some courthouse in Boston to get it removed. This is the incompetence which is ignored and allowed to slip by. Six figures in fraud.. ignored.
Someone said police aren't allowed to ignore felonies.. and who forces them to do something? Other police? I've had entire departments refuse to even file a report regarding this same thief when he wrote a $100,000 check on my account. I literally have the original check with his handwriting and nobody would touch it. I've walked into the SFPD main office with an entire briefcase full of evidence, including other DUI arrests under different names and never got a single person to copy and log it.
The guy finally did time when he tried to buy a car in my name (again) and the dealership called the police. After a couple of years on a four year sentence, he was back at it and my license was suspended for unpaid speeding tickets. I still, over a decade later, deal with the aftermath. This all could have been avoided if police took 5 minutes to look over the briefcase full of fraud and arrested the guy, or better yet, arrested the guy for claiming to be me, or even noticed he wasn't me, on the first DUI (when the ID theft first began, well before I was aware of it) in Atlanta.
This is the "good, reliable police" I hear blanket praised so often. Do I hate all police? Of course not. Though I certainly haven't had a laundry list of good experiences, and the times I have relied on them it has cost me dearly. My life savings, to be exact.
