Hayloft is Crashing Down! Help!

[sdkubota]

I would try to get rid of the weight without ever being under the failed area. It could suddenly collapse without notice since the connectors are already failing. The area below the sagging joists is extremely dangerous and not worth losing a life. After the weight is out, the failure can be evaluated and corrected.

 

[GPintheMitten]

Correction. The rim is a doubled 2x10, the joists are 2x10s, 16 o.c.

What I see that may not show well in pics, are the rim is bowing down in the middle and splaying out.

I'm a little reluctant to put pressure trying to shore it up for fear the remaining structure comes more loose or fails.

My plan is to build support first on the opposite side that has bowed down, using a 14 foot 4x4 under the joists, supported by 3, 4x4s, one at each end and one in the middle, with a 2x4bottom plate laid on the black top aisle floor. Then build the same on the other end where the joists tore loose, jacking the 4x4 up with a barn jack. Maybe not jack them all up level, but get the middle 4 or so joists supported flat by the 4x4. Then support the 4x4 temporary beam with 4x4s .

Then add cross bracing. Then go up in the loft and take some or all the hay out, until permanent repairs can be done.

 

[GPintheMitten]

If I remove the weight first, what happens if it crashes while I'm up there moving hay. I could get crushed in that process too. I guess I would stand a better chance than if it collapsed while shoring of up.

 

[sdkubota]

2 x 10s @ 16" c/c do not support the kind of weight that is being placed up there. That is a typical framing for a house. Probably could double the # of joists (8" spacing) but you have to have adequate support beams and columns to carry the loads. Talk with a (gulp) engineer...a real one.

 

[GPintheMitten]

This whole thing reminds me of a cave in in a mine.

 

[GPintheMitten]

This isn't even my daughters property. I'm thinking we get the owner to call his insurance agentand let him get an engineer in to supervise everything, including removing the load.

 

[brin]

If your daughter is the tenant, lessee and she stacked all that hay in the loft I would worry about the landlord / owner's reaction..he would probably look to your daughter to take care of any damages...unless the lease allowed her to load up the loft with unlimited bales of hay with no guidance....on the other hand if your daughter works for him...then all he can do is reprimand her or overlook the situation and then have it shored up...I'm just saying it all depends on the arrangement with the owner...Best of Luck....be careful what you or your daughter say...

 

[dave1949]

Is the power to/at the building shut off? If those conduits break and rip wires apart ...

You have to do what you think is safe, and some jobs ought not to be tackled by one person.

 

[GPintheMitten]

Yes, after safety, her liability is my next concern.

 

[GPintheMitten]

Is the power to/at the building shut off? If those conduits break and rip wires apart ...

You have to do what you think is safe, and some jobs ought not to be tackled by one person.

Power is still on to the subpanel in the barn, but all breakers in that sub are off. The subpanel is in a corner, away furthest from where the hay is loaded. Opening the breakers was the first thing I did

 

[LD1]

Them being 2x10's changings things a bit. (well, it dont really change your plan of attack for correcting the issue). But 2x10's on 16" centers and spanning 12' is only good for about 60psf. So it does indeed look like it was overloaded for how it was built. But again, this is all based on the "estimated" weight of the bale. IF off just a tad, say if they really are 65 or 70#, that is huge with that kind fo volume.

Her liability will only be known once you talk with the landlord. But do keep us posted.

I would "assume" the building is insured, so if indeed it is, maybe she can work something out to pay the deductible and let the insurance handle it. Only this time, get it built right to hold the hay.

 

[sdkubota]

The building was built with a loft and I would assume to store hay. The owner failed to have it properly designed and I would think he would be held responsible. However, even with insurance they do not pay money out without going after someone else to recover their costs. I would be extremely careful about what is said and you may need an (gulp) attorney before an engineer. Contact one you trust, explain the situation that has occured, and follow his/her advice to the letter.

 

[Misfire]

My guess is the owner has a liability issue, especially if he is collecting rent. If that loft wasn't designed and built safely, it probably wasn't permitted or inspected. That's on him, not your daughter.

Your daughter should probably consult an attorney, though. Just to be on the safe side.

 

[GPintheMitten]

Thanks for all the advice. I'm very concerned about her liability.

She left a voiceail with the owner and I talked to him when he called back. He is going to call his insurance company and Mortons.

The lease arrangements are all verbal, no written contract.
We are going to call a lawyer right after lunch.

 

[sdkubota]

Thankfully, nobody was hurt and repairs will probably be not that expensive. I would guess the owner will no longer allow hay to be stored in the loft unless the area is modified to handle the loads...

 

[Treemonkey1000]

You are right that thing could blow out the sides like crumpling a pop can. So be very careful in there as you have mentioned. Shoring up and spanning the beams that are bowed would be first order of business before trying to remove some of the hay. Myself would almost be tempted to get a decent tractor in there and raise the bucket up to hold the beams then yank out some of the hay.. which is still pretty risky..

 

[GPintheMitten]

My daughter said she gave the owner a check for rent 3 weeks ago and included an extra $30 for the use of his hay elevator and the electricity to use it. And noted that on the check and mentioned it when she handed him the check when he was at the farm. And she mentioned that she was storing hay in the loft. He said ok.

 

[sdkubota]

My daughter said she gave the owner a check for rent 3 weeks ago and included an extra $30 for the use of his hay elevator and the electricity to use it. And noted that on the check and mentioned it when she handed him the check when he was at the farm. And she mentioned that she was storing hay in the loft. He said ok.

That's gold Jerry!...(Seinfeld episode)

It appears the owner had full knowledge about the hay and probably dropped the ball when having the building built to handle those loads. I would guess your daughter is an innocent participant although legal matters don't always end in justice. I would pay close attention to the owner and at the slightest hint of shifting any blame...get an attorney. Hopefully it will never come to that and I would guess he will try and sue the builder etc. This is a textbook example of why, sometimes, you need to hire professionals to assist you in your plans. If someone was hurt the damages could have easily exceeded 1 million dollars.

 

[tlbuser]

Them being 2x10's changings things a bit. (well, it dont really change your plan of attack for correcting the issue). But 2x10's on 16" centers and spanning 12' is only good for about 60psf. So it does indeed look like it was overloaded for how it was built. But again, this is all based on the "estimated" weight of the bale. IF off just a tad, say if they really are 65 or 70#, that is huge with that kind fo volume.

Her liability will only be known once you talk with the landlord. But do keep us posted.

I would "assume" the building is insured, so if indeed it is, maybe she can work something out to pay the deductible and let the insurance handle it. Only this time, get it built right to hold the hay.

Those bales are probably alot closer to 50 lbs, and not properly stacked. Odds are pretty good that the loft coming apart was good thing since they have to unload and restack. Hay stacked that tightly has led to more than one suspected barn fire.

 

[GPintheMitten]

Ya, when she told me that, I was more at ease. The current owner was not the owner at the time the barn was built.