Neighbor removed my property line pin

[MarkV]

The tree line is actually 8" inside the line on my property which made me feel better as I owned them entirely even if the branches extended into his

Are you sure about that part? I know if a tree limb from my neighbors tree falls on my shed it is my problem. I also know I have the right to remove anything that crosses my property line that restricts my desired use. Maybe it is a regional thing but when I was living in a residential neighborhood we had a problem like the example and both the insurance companies agreed that was the case. They are your trees but I am not sure he doesn't have the right to trim them anyway he wants up to his property line. After all if your trees grow 3' over the line he has lost use of that much property, in his case desired parking.

MarkV

 

[Pops15]

Have the surveyor reset the missing pin.
I think you'll regret planting the trees so close to the line. In some states the neighboring land owner can trim the encroaching limbs. Meaning your neighbor might be able to trim the limbs straight up from the property line and leave you with one sided trees.

 

[dave1949]

TCBoomer:

That is quite a story, could be pilot for a new TV reality show, "Neighbor Wars" :laughing:

It seems like the neighbor thought he would forever enjoy the view of your backyard. Orienting and placing his house to use a view he has no control over is just plain stupid on his part. Tossing poop over the line, that would be the last straw for most.

On the bush trimming, I think he does have the right to do what he wants with the portion that extends into his property, as long as he doesn't cause the tree to die is what I have heard.

 

[CBW1999]

Wow- quite an interesting saga to say the least. Glad I had a large mug of coffe to enjoy while I read.

You may want consider transplanting further than 8 inches from the line if possible. "Down the road"... the neighbor may be able to say you did it intentinally to "annoy, intimidate or harass" him with the issue of trimming and such. The expense now might be much less than down the road both repair wise and legal fees etc.

Good fences make good neighbors tends to be correct but it still needs to be approached carefully- I certainly don't envy your situation by any means.

 

[sixdogs]

In almost every instance I have heard of, trees get trimmed to the border line and it tough luck for you. Get a skid steer woth a tree spade and move them back. I have trimmed neighbor's trees. Tree spades are cheap since there is no ball and burlap but just going from one hole to another.
With the added details here, your situation will likley worsen some before it imoroves.

 

[TCBoomer]

I took a quick glance at the replies earlier using my phone and spent the rest of the day buried in thought. Thanks for the suggestions and comments!! I say that because after thinking about a worse case scenario and all the ramifications, I'm looking at the situation more sensibly now. I made a grave mistake back in 07 when the newer Arb's were planted...I briefly entertained the thought of planting the driveway line 3' off the line and that would have been end of discussion. However in my haste to get them planted, I only thought of the eye sore that would result as far as them being planted out of line with the existing mature ones. And not considering how much less work it would be only having to move the 40 or so remaining and not the entire 140 I face now. Now that I see it in print in front of me...re: replant in the correct spot, I've reconsidered and it is my only realistic and sensible option now. Thanks again to those who mentioned it!

I kick myself hard for not doing it then, as I wouldn't be in this position now.

But...as much as I dread what I'm facing, I'm going to move them. All 140 of them...gulp! I NEED to get this thorn off my back and might as well do it while I'm still capable and while the newer ones are still manageable. For now the plan is to concentrate on moving the small guys, about 100 and worry about moving the mature ones after. I do fear that the mature may die when moved, mainly due to minimal/lack of experience if anything. Hoping I learn a bit moving the smaller ones that will give me the confidence to move the big guys. I also plan to contact my tree guy who has been extremely helpful all along, even as recent as earlier this year when I tackled the trimming of them. Then there's you folks...plenty of knowledge in the brain trust here...so hopefully if any of you care to offer up any suggestions, advice or links to know-how, it would be sincerely appreciated.

So, with that said...tell me more about this tree spade please. I'm aware somewhat of what it is but that's about it. Never used one or seen one in action. I know google is my friend and plan to research it to its limits. Is this something that is available to rent? Can I buy one that would fit my New Holland TC24DA? $$?

If the $$ is out of my reach, I'll do it by hand. May take me forever lol, but I'll do it, that much I've decided. Might be best to start another thread about it as I've already got a dozen questions. And I know you folks like pics and projects. Seeing how the current fall/winter pattern here so far is following last years mild one, I'm optimistic enough to start now. It's a shame I spent all the time I did this past summer putting in the new mulch bed, but oh well, sux to be me

My plan would start off with removing all the mulch and marking/digging the holes. By early spring I would be ready to transplant. Sound doable? If the frost doesn't set in or too deep if it does, digging the holes would be a piece of cake.

I did tell my DW of my plans and at first she thought I was nutz! Not that I'm not lol
Seriously though, after I explained the whole worse case scenario including the possibility of a new owner/neighbor causing more grief than the current one, I think she's on board now. I'll give her a day or so for it to sink in more and see how she feels.

I can only imagine what the neighbor will think when he realizes what I'm doing...trust me he and his SO would be nosey enough to spy using binoculars.

 

[TCBoomer]

The tree line is actually 8" inside the line on my property which made me feel better as I owned them entirely even if the branches extended into his

Are you sure about that part?

MarkV

Sorry, I kind of mis-spoke. No shed or structure to worry about so now worry there. What I meant was being that they were planted 8" inside the boundary, I owned them completely and he couldn't make any claim to them if he tried. As for the trimming, yes he could trim them back to the line but I doubt he would unless they got as big as the mature ones. And even then I bet he would be hesitant.

Just for a reference, here's a shot of his side of the mature trees and his driveway. I have others but can't find them right now. He still has plenty of parking and even more room where the new ones are planted due to their smaller size. But considering that as easy as he agreed to their current planting location, he could also deny it all as someone mentioned. He's lied enough to me now that I wouldn't put anything past him any more. In a court of law I doubt this verbal agreement would hold much merit and I'd likely lose.

Then again, I do have one ace up my sleeve that could give me an edge and and good chance I'd prevail. But being this site is public, and no idea if he visits, I'd rather keep it under my hat for now. And this edge was explained to me by a legal beagle.

But any worry about what ~might~ happen in the future is behind me now.

I'm moving them where they belong and by doing so, I'll remove the 'cloud" he has over my head if you can call it that.

 

[aczlan]

Tree spade:
Compact Tractor Tree Spade - Erskine Attachments, Inc.
Dutchman Tree Spades | Tree Spade

Aaron Z

 

[RobertN]

you might be able to rent a skidsteer with a tree spade.

If in your position, I would research the tree and find what the mature size is. Then move them so they will be all on your property at full maturity. You should be able to find that info thru web search, your local University AG extension, local Master Gardeners, or a knowledgeable garden store.

Always find that information first. It will help with setback from property line. It will also help to space the plant to the next one, so they dont interfere with each others growth.

 

[Alan L.]

The surveyor might be able to relocate the pin fairly easily. I'd go that route and assume the best about your neighbor.

 

[sixdogs]

Moving these is no big deal so relax. I believe you planted American Arborvitae, also called Northern White Cedar and I am very familiar moving them and have transplated many both with a tree spade and by ripping them out with a backhoe and doing it myself. Give them water for a few years and 100% should live. I have moved 10-15 footers with no problem. Just WATER THEM and broadcast some fertilizer outside the drip line each spring for a few years. Transplant now if you stll can.

Don't do it yourself because of the learning curve although you could. You need a a skid steer with a 30" front spade. Flag or paint spray all the locations in advance as this can go fast. Dig the first hole an dput the dirtball by the last hole. Dig the second tree and plunk the tree in the first hole. Take dirt back and put in that hole the tree came out of. Rinse and repeat. Don't worry if not exactly straight or they sit a few inches high or not, they will live if you water them. We used to live in Maine and I have planted maybe 500 of these. Maybe 1000.

If a guy is humping and has a helper to guide the tree alignment in the spade and do the same with planting, you can probably do all these in an easy 3/4 day or so but that depends on operator experience. You could rent a skid steer that would likely cost $450 for the day plus transportation. It will take a few hours of learning curve and you will be dreadfully slow for the first 25.

When some people dig a tree, they lift the spades slightly and knock the point off the rootball so the tree fits better in the new hole. That takes too much time. A better way is to dig the blank hole deeper and dig the tree out a ittle shallower and it's close enough. The trees will grow straight and depth doesn't matter much in New England damp gravel and frequent rainfall.

You do need to water the first couple years. Read that a few times since your rock and gravel soil dries out FAST and cedars like damp. Figure it out and broadcat fertilizer as mention but ask about that later. Search how to water trees under my older threads but it's easy. There is an older thread--i think-on moving 12 ft cedars with a backhoe. Don't even think about it since it takes forever.

Drip irrigation is easy but you could also use some 5 gallon buckets witha 3/16" hole drilled in the bottom. Fill the bucket and every drop goes to work. Get a couple 55 gallon barrels, plumb a hose connection at the bottom and lift in bucket loader to water. A better way is a couple hundred feet of Sam's Club hose with quick connectors on them and knock yourself out. We have evolved to this method unless the trees are really out of the way. Start now picking up 5 gallon blacktop buckets from other people's trash.

Putting the trees 8" off the line is a sure way to cause a scuffle so you get some blame and your neighbor is partially a tad in the clear. You could also leave the trees and they could be trimmed and do well but moving is the best idea. I have cut cedars in half and they recover just fine.

By the way, a tight cedar hedge is 4 ft on center, no more and no less. Great time to adjust spacing. Maybe 3' to 4' off the line is a great idea but that's up to you.

EDIT--You know, you could also just plant another row of trees and cut the first ones down in a year or so. Maybe prune while the others grow. Cedars grow really fast and it just takes a few years for six ft. You can buy 3 ft tall plants from a nursery for a couple dollars each and plant those. We start them in pots for the first year and transplant in August. 100% survival rate that way.

 

[dodge man]

To TCBoomer I'll give you a little more input based on the rest of your story. I'll make a couple of points, and please don't be offended by what I say. Through my work, I run into an amazing number of stories that are similar to yours. Something that starts as a fairly simple dispute between neighbors degrades into something that almost seems to an outsider like two kids having a fight. Throwing dog crap in your yard, not the first time I've heard of that.

As far as you planting bushes up against the line, I've heard of a term called a "spite fence". A spite fence is where someone puts up a fence just to spite a neighbor. It doesn't serve any purpose except to tick them off. There was a famous one in San Fransisco as I recall during the late 1800's, where someone put up a spite fence that was several stories tall. The person had tried to buy up an entire block but one person held out. The owner of the rest of the block put up this really tall fence to block this person is. I'm not saying you putting up the bushes was designed to spite your neighbor, buy I can see how he would feel this way. You can make the point that you did it to keep people off your lawn. You could have done the same thing by putting up a fence or something else that didn't block his view as much.

Another point to make, some people have a different perspective on yards and living in the country. You have a yard that many would love to have and it looks great. Some people would never dream of driving on the grass in someones yard in town, but out in the country, they think it doesn't matter. I'd say your neighbor and his guests have this attitude. They just don't respect the fact that you have a nice yard and its important to you.

If I were to be honest, I'd say you have done some things to escalate the bad feelings between you and your neighbor, but in legal terms, I don't really see you having done anything wrong. When these things turn sour, I tell people they had better be ready the suffer the results, both in terms of the financial cost and emotional. It seems like you and the neighbor are 1 incident away from landing in court.

 

[sixdogs]

Reagrding the dodge man comments, there is a book around called The Gift of Fear by Gavin De Becker that deals with defusing and de-escalating situations. He is a big dollar pro in this area and deals with the psychological reasons why people behave the way they do and how to judge the intent and probable behavior of one's fellow man. It is required reading for most detectives. As well, it discusses the behavior of why some people wind up being survivors in life and some wind up becoming victims and the behavioral charateristics of personality types that cause trouble and why they do it.

This book has really helped me understand what people do and why they do it. Why some survive and some don't and how to get out of trouble when you're in it and how to identify those likely to be trouble from the get-go. It really doesn't apply much in this situation but is worth the mention since it sort-of fits. It would also cover why some survive a tragic situation and others don't. You would likely fully understand the neighbor's motivation which likely is different than we all think.

For anyone ever planning on resolving anything, has ever been in a dipute or may be challenged in life, this is must reading. Just my two cents here.

 

[Redbug]

I think I would enjoy the privacy those trees give and not having to look at another person's house. And that's whether I like the neighbors or not.

 

[dave1949]

I understand what DodgeMan is saying, but the first overt action that is strange in this case was when the neighbor placed and oriented his house in such a way as to guarantee future conflict. That happened before the OP even lived there, if I understand the timeline. Just about everything else flowed from what I would call a bad and somewhat aggressive choice of the neighbor.

I guess, if you want stretch a point, that was an existing condition when the OP bought his house, that he could have avoided by not purchasing the property. But, that decision reached by the OP or any other buyer, is like saying the neighbor is taking over the next door property by devaluing it. It's not the OP's job to be the property police, but if he looked at the situation and decided he could screen the neighbor's house and be happy, he is hardly to blame IMO.

Like Redbug, I wouldn't want my back yard to be a fishbowl with no privacy.

 

[dodge man]

Sixdogs, sounds like an interesting book. I've done some boundary surveys and had what I would consider both reasonable people, yet here they are fighting, sometimes physically, over a boundary. Some people get very emotional, almost like defending you childern, over there boundaries.

I would say that one theme I often see is that people don't respect their adjoiners boundary. Have you ever seen your kids play "Hot Lava". They will run around jumping on the furniture and pretend if their feet hit the floor they will be burned up. Some times adults need to do this. If they set foot off of their land and on their neighbors, they are in hot lava.

 

[riptides]

Sixdogs, sounds like an interesting book. I've done some boundary surveys and had what I would consider both reasonable people, yet here they are fighting, sometimes physically, over a boundary. Some people get very emotional, almost like defending you childern, over there boundaries.

Yeah, emotional, angry, almost hostile, stupid and down right mean. And whatever they do is right, no matter the outcome for their neighbors.

So how does one deal with people like this?

 

[MarkV]

Yeah, emotional, angry, almost hostile, stupid and down right mean. And whatever they do is right, no matter the outcome for their neighbors.

So how does one deal with people like this?

Simple, you go to court and everyone spends more than the land is worth on legal fees.

MarkV

 

[riptides]

Simple, you go to court and everyone spends more than the land is worth on legal fees.

MarkV

Nope. I just grit my teeth a lot. But, unfortunate, your correct, the court is the right way to go.

 

[sixdogs]

Read the book I suggested. It's in most libraries and it's a paperback as well. I'm no expert at this but the author gives a number of examples in which people went to court when in reality only a simple problem existed that could have been easily cured. For an example I am just guessing at, maybe a particular neighbor's problem with someone next door was that he appeared to be showing off a new tractor and made a guy jealous. The dispute escalalated because the signals of compromise were missed and things went bad from there. Read the book.
Court is rarely a good idea and a person who is intuitive or taught to be via example can often diffuse an issue long before it gets there.

In this thread's OP issue, my guess is the neighbor was genuinely ticked off because the OP planted trees 8 inches off the border and when grown would encroach on his lot line. Maybe the parking was a straw dog and maybe not but he felt threatened and rightfully so. What his kids or cars did is a separate matter.
Moving the trees is a great clarification but again, I'm no voice of dispute resolution. Maybe after the trees are squared away and the border adequately and correctly marked, the issue goes away. Surely if the border is marked and the OP moves his trees, the issue is deflated to a large degree. You have to take it one step at a time but I'll bet that solves it since both then know the resolve of the other and the border is absolutely marked. Read the book.