GPS and laser leveling for small irrigated plots.

jenkinsph · Jan 27, 2013

Guy's I am looking into setting up for leveling some small plots for irrigated land. I have been approached about the need for this by a friend and am curious about who may have some exoerience with the gps and laser operated equipment currently available. This would be for small acreage jobs using my 4520 for finish grading. One of my other friends does the big jobs with scrapers and motor graders and feels their is room for a compact tractor setup to handle the small jobs. This will be ongoing jobs for the next few years.

I am asking about the various brands and cost of leveling and grading electronics. I am curious about which equipment is the best and efficient to use. So far this weekend I have read up on Topcon, Leica and Trimble but would like to hear from others who have experience with this stuff.

mikehaugen · Jan 27, 2013

Since no one else has responded I will add my 2 cents. In the little bit of research I have done, once you get into the GPS stuff, you are talking big money. Especially since then you are talking mapping software. If you are doing it yourself I would recommend a laser of some kind. If you are talking just about leveling, just a builders level would probably do the trick, or a rotary laser. A pretty good laser should be able to be had for under $2k, or even less. I came across a older leika optical theodolite for some projects I had planned around here, and while it will work for what I need, it adds complexity to the instrument. If you need that complexity for doing angles and whatever else you could also get into a total station which will pair with software to add functionality, but again, add complexity. Most of what I see builders/contractors/excavators using are total stations, while surveyors have gone the GPS route. Most total stations I have seen are in the $5k range. I am not a surveyor, and do not have a lot of experience with this, so take this advice with a grain of salt. Hopefully someone else will help you better. The only things I know are from what sounds like similar research to what you are doing. Maybe give a little more details about what you are trying to accomplish, and someone could probably help you better.

Ken · Jan 27, 2013

jenkinsph said:
Guy's I am looking into setting up for leveling some small plots for irrigated land. I have been approached about the need for this by a friend and am curious about who may have some exoerience with the gps and laser operated equipment currently available. This would be for small acreage jobs using my 4520 for finish grading. One of my other friends does the big jobs with scrapers and motor graders and feels their is room for a compact tractor setup to handle the small jobs. This will be ongoing jobs for the next few years.

I am asking about the various brands and cost of leveling and grading electronics. I am curious about which equipment is the best and efficient to use. So far this weekend I have read up on Topcon, Leica and Trimble but would like to hear from others who have experience with this stuff.

What acreage is the small plots. During the WPA days surveyers were able to build terraces to cause water slowly drain off the field and not wash soil away. I have used a water hose with clean tubing on each end put in a stake and attach the one end to high side move dirt until equal fluid in hose. at the ends it is level.
Now in N.mex. I have seen signs stating Small ranch of 100 sections for sale.
So each his own on sizing of land.
ken

jenkinsph · Jan 27, 2013

Thanks for the responses. What I am looking at is to level small plots of from 2 to 6 acres within about 1/10th of an inch. I am looking into set up for machine operated leveling controls, the Topcon stuff looks good so far and it seems to be about $7000 for a basic setup. This would control the blade height to keep it within specs as you traverse the field. I have a decent builders laser already with stick and receiver but that isn't near good enough for this type work. The gps setup would be more money but I am not yet convinced I would need it for this sized jobs.

dodge man · Jan 27, 2013

Are you looking at stuff that controls the blade, or that you read and you control the blade? I am a land surveyor and don't personally use machine control, but have been around it a lot. The reason I ask is you can by the rotary laser equipment pretty resonable and the electronics to guide you as you use your machine, but its my understanding thats it costs quite a bit more if you want the laser to actually control the hydraulics of the machine. The big costs is getting the hydraulics of the machine hooked up. I'm pretty sure GPS is a lot more money. I don't know an exact cost, but the system we bought about 3 months ago was 25k for survey grade GPS.

Take a look at a rotary laser with some kind of guide you can put on your machine, I think that will be in the price range you want.

mikehaugen · Jan 27, 2013

My uncle owns a construction company and I remember him telling me a couple years ago that he had just bought a gps guided dozer, sounds impressive, but IIRC he said it was around a $50k option from Cat.

jenkinsph · Jan 27, 2013

Dave,
Currently looking at a Topcon RL100 laser, LSB110W wireless receiver with machine control output, and a RD100w wireless remote display for the cab. The laser and receiver are about $2300 each and the remote display is $800 all list prices for a total of about $5400, Trying to find the price of the control box to operate the cylinder on the grader box. All of this is for single slope work as that is all that is required. The hydraulics and solenoid valves are the easy part for me, just need the electronics and outputs for the relays.

jenkinsph · Jan 27, 2013

mikehaugen said:
My uncle owns a construction company and I remember him telling me a couple years ago that he had just bought a gps guided dozer, sounds impressive, but IIRC he said it was around a $50k option from Cat.

Mike,

The gps stuff is pricey but does provide some advantages for this work if you are moving alot of dirt. I suspect that the laser setup might be enough for me at least to get my feet wet. Since I would be provided with topo maps of the fields and these are small areas it shouldn't be too difficult to know where to put the dirt I need to move.

On a more humorous note I told my brother today while discussing this that my gps fishfinder combo could put me within 8 to 10 ft of location accuracy with the maps I have now. While that may not be impressive to a surveyor I have to figure the tractor and box are about 7'x20' so in a larger field that might help.

kevin37b · Jan 28, 2013

You are looking at the right equipment for that type of work .GPS really shines when you need to cut several different elevations and need to know where to cut .You are not doing this , I don't see GPS being beneficial .Is your box mounted or pull type ?

dodge man · Jan 28, 2013

Yeah, I'd say you are looking at the right stuff. I think you will find the GPS stuff really pricey, and then someone has to make a electronic file for the GPS to use as a guide. I don't know about the specific equipment you are looking at but almost all our surveying equipment is Topcon and we like it. I work with someone that does field tile and I know his stuff is Topcon, which is a rotary laser he sets up on a tall tripod.

Pine Strip · Jan 28, 2013

Transit levels can be found online for $300. You might be able to borrow or rent a transit level from someone in the business.

Don87 · Jan 28, 2013

I'm not sure what phone you have, but the GPS on some of the phones are supposed to be accurate to within 3 ft. or less (IIRC)

I listen to the Kim Komando show a lot, and she was talking about it a while back.

jenkinsph · Jan 28, 2013

Thanks for the replies, I haven't nailed everything down yet but it looks like about $7500 msrp for the electronics and controls to do this with 3/32" accuracy. I would mount the laser on a trailer with corner jacks to prevent movement and setup my industrial boxblade with hydraulic wheels and tow type hitch. I think for large amounts of dirt to move I can have the tractor cutting down to grade and windrowing the spoils the have the backhoe pickup and haul to the low spots. Working both machines this way should speed things up roughing the place in. Then time for finish grading and smoothing everything. For now I am going to focus on topcon laser leveling with machine control and wait on the gps stuff.

I agree that simple gps equipment might be all I need for now if at all. I haven't checked the gps accuracy lately but I will see about this in the next week.

Any other ideas or information would be appreciated.

MHarryE · Jan 28, 2013

You are heading in the right direction. GPS is going to be very expensive. A grader (if not too much dirt needs to be moved) or dozer (if a lot of dirt is moved) with GPS receivers on each end of the blade and working with the machine hydraulics would let you get the job done super fast, but the machine electronics are just the start. You would need a base station providing the signal corrections for the accuracy you want. Love working with the stuff but glad I don't have to pay the bill.

jenkinsph · Jan 29, 2013

MHarryE said:
You are heading in the right direction. GPS is going to be very expensive. A grader (if not too much dirt needs to be moved) or dozer (if a lot of dirt is moved) with GPS receivers on each end of the blade and working with the machine hydraulics would let you get the job done super fast, but the machine electronics are just the start. You would need a base station providing the signal corrections for the accuracy you want. Love working with the stuff but glad I don't have to pay the bill.

When you refrence the base station corrections I assume you mean for gps accuracy. If you mean for leveling I don't understand how the corrections would help, I would say that most of these shoots would be for less than 500 ft and typically 200ft on average. The USDA person provides the topo maps with calculations for yardage moved and tells me that typically to expect between 300 to 1000 yds/ acre. Most are commonly 450 yds of material he mentioned, this is for fine grading older fields that need sprucing up.

Years ago I bought a new Deere 850 dozer and I must say those notes roled around regularly. I'm am hoping to stay with smaller stuff now for 50 to 100hp tractors. These are small fields of 1 to 6 acres bottomland are mostly flat already. This would be part time work not full time, just trying to fill up all the months with decent work.

dodge man · Jan 30, 2013

To get "survey grade" GPS results, you need corrections. A single unit, such as what you buy at Walmart, or the unit in a phone, is accurate to a few feet. In the horizontal direction, this is probably good enough, but for grading, a few feet of accuracy isn't very good in the vertical direction. You can pay for base corrections, some ag companies offer it, but its still the same thing, the elevations probably aren't good enough. Some states offer corrections, some are free, some aren't, and some survey suppliers offer it. Trimble offers it for the state of Illinois, but its pricey, a few thousand dollars every year for a subscription.

An alternate method, and the one I use, is to have a second GPS reciever. The GPS base sends corrections to the rover with a radio, or a cell phone link, and you have accuracy of about a 1/4". This also requires a clear overhead, ie no trees or very few trees. A typical machine control is two antennas on each side of the blade, be it a dozier or motor graders, a reciever, and electorics the operator can view. This is usually also tied into the hydraulics of the machine and when the operator gets the grades close, the machine does it for the operator. This type of set up is very pricey. This can also be done with a rotary laser, but you don't have any horizontal control, but depending on the project, it might not matter.

Another problem with machine control is you need a "grading file". This is basically a 3D model that tells the machine how to grade the project. For large highway jobs, this 3D model can cost tens of thousands of dollars. In the long run, this saves a lot of money, you don't need as many stakes, the operator is more efficent, and the job goes quicker, but the intial investment is pricey and probably beyond what you need.

JD 4520 · Jan 30, 2013

I don't see why you need GPS for what you have described however you need some leveling equipment and laser is adequate. Construction laser equipment is not expensive. You are just trying to figure what slope that you have so that you control drainage. That is simple and inexpensive. Don't over complicate things.

jenkinsph · Jan 30, 2013

Dave,
Thanks for the information on the gps systems and a great explanation.

My primary concern would be leveling these very small bottomland plots of 1 to 6 acres at a time. I am thinking a laser level, receiver, receiver remote, single function control box and proportional hydraulic valve would work. Looking to mount this to a tow type boxblade about 7' wide. Do you think this will work or do I need a setup on each side of the blade?

The larger plots are done with motorgraders and dozers much like you describe. I am trying to setup for the small jobs.

kevin37b · Jan 30, 2013

All he is doing is taking 2 - 6 acres and grading it tabletop flat . They will then flood irrigate the area . Being level the water disperses evenly across the entire tract and water is left to soak in . Think of a pool table with an inch of water on it . There are borders around the field to contain the water and borders at intervals across the area to control the application . There is no drainage or runoff involved . I wondered how you were going to use your mounted box but you've got that covered . Why don't you build a box for this app . , maybe 8' wide and you're mounted box will be there ready to go . Just thinking .