Trellis Design (Blackberries)

[schoolsout]

Not sure if this is right place, but figured I'd post here anyways.

Need to build about 50-60' trellis for Triple Crown Blackberries (this strain is "creeping" or whatever, meaning it will grow along ground if left untouched). I have 10 TC plants and plan to use treated 4x4 (only using treated because I want it to last...hate the chemicals used) and have a 2 wire system with first wire around 24-30" above ground with top wire about 48" or a little more above ground. Wire will be 12.5 ga high-tensile wire and will use ratchet tensioners to keep wire tight.

At each end, I plan on having 2 4x4s about 8' apart for 8' 2x4 to connect the top of posts then wire connecting bottom of very end post to top of next post to brace it. I'm trying to build it as sturdy as possible, but thinking the blackberries won't be all that heavy (like grapes). I will do the 50' span with no posts between. Will this hold? or should I put another post in middle?

Also, I have about 18 semi-erect blackberries (arapaho, apache and kiowa) and plan on doing a "T" style trellis for them. This one will be about 100' long. Plan is to have wires on top 3' apart using 2x4 across the 4x4 post and halfway down, have another smaller "T" to help keep the younger stalks off ground. Wondering how much pressure the plants will have on wires when just "leaning" on them. I'm also thinking it won't be that much weight. I'm planning to put at least 2 posts between the 100' span to hold wires out.

Also, should I use concrete on posts? Will be about 3' deep leaving 5' above ground. Soil is sandy on top then clay below.

Hope this makes sense. Any help/suggestions appreciated. Was supposed to put the posts in ground this weekend, but got sidetracked. Blackberries were bought bare root and placed in pots this winter and are starting to grow really well now that it's finally warm out. Would like to get in ground ASAP.

And one other thing...anyone know where to get a roll of 12.5ga high tensile wire that is less than 4,000 feet long? Most places I have found that did sell smaller rolls do not do so any longer.

 

[schoolsout]

Beuller? Beuller?

 

[Gary Fowler]

Not sure if this is right place, but figured I'd post here anyways.

Need to build about 50-60' trellis for Triple Crown Blackberries (this strain is "creeping" or whatever, meaning it will grow along ground if left untouched). I have 10 TC plants and plan to use treated 4x4 (only using treated because I want it to last...hate the chemicals used) and have a 2 wire system with first wire around 24-30" above ground with top wire about 48" or a little more above ground. Wire will be 12.5 ga high-tensile wire and will use ratchet tensioners to keep wire tight.

At each end, I plan on having 2 4x4s about 8' apart for 8' 2x4 to connect the top of posts then wire connecting bottom of very end post to top of next post to brace it. I'm trying to build it as sturdy as possible, but thinking the blackberries won't be all that heavy (like grapes). I will do the 50' span with no posts between. Will this hold? or should I put another post in middle?

Also, I have about 18 semi-erect blackberries (arapaho, apache and kiowa) and plan on doing a "T" style trellis for them. This one will be about 100' long. Plan is to have wires on top 3' apart using 2x4 across the 4x4 post and halfway down, have another smaller "T" to help keep the younger stalks off ground. Wondering how much pressure the plants will have on wires when just "leaning" on them. I'm also thinking it won't be that much weight. I'm planning to put at least 2 posts between the 100' span to hold wires out.

Also, should I use concrete on posts? Will be about 3' deep leaving 5' above ground. Soil is sandy on top then clay below.

Hope this makes sense. Any help/suggestions appreciated. Was supposed to put the posts in ground this weekend, but got sidetracked. Blackberries were bought bare root and placed in pots this winter and are starting to grow really well now that it's finally warm out. Would like to get in ground ASAP.

And one other thing...anyone know where to get a roll of 12.5ga high tensile wire that is less than 4,000 feet long? Most places I have found that did sell smaller rolls do not do so any longer.

Go to Lowes and buy the wire like you put on top and bottom of a chain link fence. They come is 100 foot rolls and the wire is about 3/16" in diameter. I would for sure pick up a few sacks of sack-crete while at Lowes getting your treated post, wire and 2x4's and concrete your post. 2x4's aren't the best for tensioning wire, they don't have much lateral strength and bow quite easily. I think I would look a using some 2" schedule 40 galvanized pipe, it will hold tension much better and not rot or bow with age.

 

[SanDucerro]

I'd suggest the following...

1) Find out the weight of the berries and the number each plant can support. This will give you a better idea of the weight the wire will support.
2) 12.5 Gauge wire is fine and can be purchased at Home Depot in 400 foot rolls (or circles - not "really" rolls). I've also bought short sections at Tractor Supply (300+ length) - but they don't always have stock.
3) 50 foot between posts is too far in my opinion - put another post in. I'd also suggest switching from 4x4's to round CCA posts - they are MUCH stonger. You only need a few - so cost shouldn't be an issue. I'm using 5" round 8 foot CCA posts for line posts in our vineyard (which is a bit of overkill). Those are under $10 from my local lumber yard - your price may vary. I'd STRONGLY suggest the end posts on your H Brace be larger. I went with 6" round 10 foot CCA posts for the ends on our vineyard trellis. Only the end posts needed to be set in concrete. I'd also use another of the 5" 8 footers for the cross brace. If you're still stuck on using square posts, then at a minimum skip the idea to use a 2x4 for the cross brace. The cross brace needs to be a 4x4 as well.

One more thing - concrete for posts (40 lb bags) can be purchased at Home Depot for about $4 a bag. It's the RED bag. Works great. Just dump the contents of the bag in the hole and then add 1/2 to 1 gallon of water. Dries HARD in 4 hours and is ready to use the next day.

 

[Robert_in_NY]

If you don't want the chemicals from the treated lumber then do you have any locust trees? Cut them for the posts, strip the bark and they will last 40-50 years if not longer. There are other trees that would do similar without needing to be treated.

I use mostly treated posts in my vineyards but that is because it is easier for me. I use locust for the end posts though because the locust will outlast the treated 2-1 easily. I don't split the locust trees either, I put them in full size so I am selective in what trees I cut. The biggest posts I can and will use for end posts are 10" diameter but each posts gets smaller as you cut. Downside to locust is it is extremely hard when dry so pounding staples or nails after it is dried can be difficult.

 

[Robert_in_NY]

I'd suggest the following...

1) Find out the weight of the berries and the number each plant can support. This will give you a better idea of the weight the wire will support.
2) 12.5 Gauge wire is fine and can be purchased at Home Depot in 400 foot rolls (or circles - not "really" rolls). I've also bought short sections at Tractor Supply (300+ length) - but they don't always have stock.
3) 50 foot between posts is too far in my opinion - put another post in. I'd also suggest switching from 4x4's to round CCA posts - they are MUCH stonger. You only need a few - so cost shouldn't be an issue. I'm using 5" round 8 foot CCA posts for line posts in our vineyard (which is a bit of overkill). Those are under $10 from my local lumber yard - your price may vary. I'd STRONGLY suggest the end posts on your H Brace be larger. I went with 6" round 10 foot CCA posts for the ends on our vineyard trellis. Only the end posts needed to be set in concrete. I'd also use another of the 5" 8 footers for the cross brace. If you're still stuck on using square posts, then at a minimum skip the idea to use a 2x4 for the cross brace. The cross brace needs to be a 4x4 as well.

One more thing - concrete for posts (40 lb bags) can be purchased at Home Depot for about $4 a bag. It's the RED bag. Works great. Just dump the contents of the bag in the hole and then add 1/2 to 1 gallon of water. Dries HARD in 4 hours and is ready to use the next day.

Why did you set your end posts in concrete? Around here I have seen a lot of different options. I use earth anchors a few feet out from the end post and run a wire from the top of the post to the anchor. On vineyards where there are visitors (pick your own operations) they use anchors but set them one post in and the top wire is stretched between those first posts in and then there is just a short length between the end post and the first post in but it allows them to have a solid anchor without a trip hazard. I've also seen end posts with wood bracing like on a fence as well. But I've never heard of anyone using concrete on any of their posts here so I would enjoy learning what your thoughts were in choosing to do so.

How far along are your vines so far? My concords are just about to break out of dormancy. Been a long winter here but hopefully it means it will be a great growing season.

 

[creekbend]

Hope this helps somewhat. Trellising Your Blackberry Plants - Growing with Stark Bro's

 

[creekbend]

Additional info. www.youtube.com/watch/?v=2mOk3iVm9Pg

 

[dave1949]

Watch out for this fly: Research Shows Fruit Fly Prefers Sweet, Soft Fruit - Growing Magazine - The Latest from GrowingMagazine.com

They lay their eggs in soft berries, then the larva eat the fruit. Supposed to be tiny and hard to detect.

You might consider a built-in method of putting anti-bird netting over the trellis while building.

 

[SanDucerro]

Why did you set your end posts in concrete?

From a personal perspective I don't like wires and augers, so I went with H Braces. It's nothing more than a "look" I want. Since the rows are fairly long and there will be no additional guide wires I felt the concrete was needed. Having said that, we're in the first stages of establishing our vinyard, so the posts are not even set yet. They have been delivered (and it's a very BIG pile of posts I might add - a little over 400 total), and the schedule says we're installing next week. Originally, the "plan" was to use the space between the braces for an additional vine, but I don't think I'll need the additional space now that I've reconfigured the vineyard layout (popped a fence out another 16 feet).

How far along are your vines so far? My concords are just about to break out of dormancy. Been a long winter here but hopefully it means it will be a great growing season.

Well, if the nursery ever delivers them... We ordered 700 Black Spanish and 700 Blanc Du Bois from Fairhaven Nursery in NE Texas in September. These are the two vines that grow best in our area. The original delivery date was late February or early March, but the weather in NE Texas has been rather harsh this year. As such, the Black Spanish are not ready for delivery yet (should be ready in about two weeks). The Blanc Du Bois are ready now, but since they are shipping the order on their dime they want to do a single delivey.

 

[Robert_in_NY]

From a personal perspective I don't like wires and augers, so I went with H Braces. It's nothing more than a "look" I want. Since the rows are fairly long and there will be no additional guide wires I felt the concrete was needed. Having said that, we're in the first stages of establishing our vinyard, so the posts are not even set yet. They have been delivered (and it's a very BIG pile of posts I might add - a little over 400 total), and the schedule says we're installing next week. Originally, the "plan" was to use the space between the braces for an additional vine, but I don't think I'll need the additional space now that I've reconfigured the vineyard layout (popped a fence out another 16 feet).

Well, if the nursery ever delivers them... We ordered 700 Black Spanish and 700 Blanc Du Bois from Fairhaven Nursery in NE Texas in September. These are the two vines that grow best in our area. The original delivery date was late February or early March, but the weather in NE Texas has been rather harsh this year. As such, the Black Spanish are not ready for delivery yet (should be ready in about two weeks). The Blanc Du Bois are ready now, but since they are shipping the order on their dime they want to do a single delivey.

You should see my post pile. 2200 of them. Ordered two truckloads last fall for the new vineyards we planted last spring. Going to be fun planting all the posts this spring.

Good luck with your plants, the first year is the hardest.

 

[SanDucerro]

You should see my post pile. 2200 of them. Ordered two truckloads last fall for the new vineyards we planted last spring. Going to be fun planting all the posts this spring.

Good luck with your plants, the first year is the hardest.

2200! Yikes! Now I know why you have a post pounder! My lumber yard guy about freaked when I ordered the 400 for the vineyard - and that was two weeks after ordering over 130 12 footers for the deer fence. Now, everytime I go by the yard, I drop in and tell him I need more posts - just to see his reaction! And yes - the first year is certainly the hardest. I'm sure I'll make mistakes along the way (already have), but I'm having a blast - and in my book that's all that counts!

 

[Robert_in_NY]

2200! Yikes! Now I know why you have a post pounder! My lumber yard guy about freaked when I ordered the 400 for the vineyard - and that was two weeks after ordering over 130 12 footers for the deer fence. Now, everytime I go by the yard, I drop in and tell him I need more posts - just to see his reaction! And yes - the first year is certainly the hardest. I'm sure I'll make mistakes along the way (already have), but I'm having a blast - and in my book that's all that counts!

I have 33 active acres of grapes and planted 11 additional acres last spring. I go through a couple hundred posts each year on the 33 acres. It keeps me busy

 

[schoolsout]

I'd suggest the following...

1) Find out the weight of the berries and the number each plant can support. This will give you a better idea of the weight the wire will support.
2) 12.5 Gauge wire is fine and can be purchased at Home Depot in 400 foot rolls (or circles - not "really" rolls). I've also bought short sections at Tractor Supply (300+ length) - but they don't always have stock.
3) 50 foot between posts is too far in my opinion - put another post in. I'd also suggest switching from 4x4's to round CCA posts - they are MUCH stonger. You only need a few - so cost shouldn't be an issue. I'm using 5" round 8 foot CCA posts for line posts in our vineyard (which is a bit of overkill). Those are under $10 from my local lumber yard - your price may vary. I'd STRONGLY suggest the end posts on your H Brace be larger. I went with 6" round 10 foot CCA posts for the ends on our vineyard trellis. Only the end posts needed to be set in concrete. I'd also use another of the 5" 8 footers for the cross brace. If you're still stuck on using square posts, then at a minimum skip the idea to use a 2x4 for the cross brace. The cross brace needs to be a 4x4 as well.

One more thing - concrete for posts (40 lb bags) can be purchased at Home Depot for about $4 a bag. It's the RED bag. Works great. Just dump the contents of the bag in the hole and then add 1/2 to 1 gallon of water. Dries HARD in 4 hours and is ready to use the next day.

You think the 12.5 ga high-tensile stuff needs more support between?

The posts we have are radius edged 4x4s and already have them. Hope I don't regret using them in the future, but will be a pain to take back.

We have 6 50lb bags of sacrete. You think one bag per hole is necessary? I was thinking half a bag incase posts need to be removed for some odd reason. Figured it would be a bit easier.

I hear ya on the 2x4s end braces. Haven't purchased anything yet for that, so still up in air. How would you connect the 4x4 cross braces? Bolt through sides of posts together or bolt them "in-line" (Hope that makes sense)

 

[schoolsout]

If you don't want the chemicals from the treated lumber then do you have any locust trees? Cut them for the posts, strip the bark and they will last 40-50 years if not longer. There are other trees that would do similar without needing to be treated.

I use mostly treated posts in my vineyards but that is because it is easier for me. I use locust for the end posts though because the locust will outlast the treated 2-1 easily. I don't split the locust trees either, I put them in full size so I am selective in what trees I cut. The biggest posts I can and will use for end posts are 10" diameter but each posts gets smaller as you cut. Downside to locust is it is extremely hard when dry so pounding staples or nails after it is dried can be difficult.

Don't think there are any locust trees on property

 

[SanDucerro]

You think the 12.5 ga high-tensile stuff needs more support between?

Yes. If I recall, the maximum length on trellis wire without support is generally considered to be 30 feet. If this was wire for a fence to keep livestock in (or out), then you could go much further. But there is no "weight" being supported in the case of livestock. I think you'll sag in the middle if you go 50 feet. I could be wrong, but a single post is $10 - why take the chance.

The posts we have are radius edged 4x4s and already have them. Hope I don't regret using them in the future, but will be a pain to take back.

I'd save those for another project and buy the round posts. They are WAY stronger, will resist warping better. If you bought your post at the same place I buy mine - you'd be looking at $50 for 5 of the 5" 8' CCA posts and $30 for two of the 6" 10' CCA posts. That's $80 well spent.

We have 6 50lb bags of sacrete. You think one bag per hole is necessary? I was thinking half a bag incase posts need to be removed for some odd reason. Figured it would be a bit easier.

The Sacrette I used was in 40 lb bags - so we're not comparing apples to apples (or blackberries as the case may be). I personnaly don't like storing concrete as it tends to go hard over time. You've only got two posts that I think need to be in concrete, so I'd use the whole bag. The End posts absolutely need to be in concrete, but the brace post will be fine without. Same for the middle post if you add one. The tension is on the end posts - not the middle post (line post). The brace post is held in place by the brace wire, so it usually doesn't need concrete, but it certainly doesn't hurt to add some.

I hear ya on the 2x4s end braces. Haven't purchased anything yet for that, so still up in air. How would you connect the 4x4 cross braces? Bolt through sides of posts together or bolt them "in-line" (Hope that makes sense)

How would I connect? I'd use pins, not bolts. The brace wire will hold the End post and the Brace post together - as such it doesn't need to be bolted together. You'll need two 10" brace pins and two 5" pins. You can get these from Tractor Supply in packs of 5. The 5" package is about $4 and the 10" is about $5.

 

[schoolsout]

I've had a change of plans. Not doing the Triple Crown, which would need the most support. Reason for not doing so is I am getting mixed reviews on them fruiting this far south with amount of chill hours. Will probably plant them along edge of property and let them go wild.

Now, I am doing the erect varieties (I thought they were semi-erect, but supposedly they are erect) that grow straight up first year and only droop when they get weight of berries on them. A "T" (2 wire) trellis is all that is needed and I don't see a problem with my set up. So far, I'm using 3 4x4s concreted about 2.5' deep in a span of 80'. I have 9ga galvanized wire (ordered earlier in year and wasn't going to use it, but since I have it, I will.

I appreciate all the info. I think most of what y'all were recommending was more suited for grapes (which I plan to do sometime in the future) and the weight they produce. I will keep y'all updated on progress.

Thanks!

 

[schoolsout]

I will add that I may end up adding some bracing, but I really don't see the need for it for the ~18 erect varieties I have.

 

[powerpace]

Crossbow spray will kill those blackberrys. Where I'm at in Oregon Blackberrys are taking over everything. Nobody cultivates them!!!!
In Summer when we see cars pulled to the side of the road picking Blackberrys it will be someone from out of state everytime.
Whatever you do keep them controlled. Birds will spread the seeds. Soon you will be seeing your neighbors at your door with pitchforks and flaming torches blaming you for the evil you have brought them. The local farm store will be sending you special discounts because of all the new business they are getting from people trying to rid themselves of the blackberrys you brought to the area.
On the other hand Blackberry Cobbler with ice cream can't be beat. I freeze a couple gallons every year. Enjoy!!!!

 

[Pete Judd]

I use 2-4-d on them, they are pain in the a## here . lots to pick around the road side.