Saving / repairing pole barn posts

[joshuabardwell]

I noticed tonight that some of the posts on my pole barn are starting to rot at ground level. To say there are runoff issues would be putting it mildly: the barn is on a gravel pad, and when it rains heavily, there is standing water in some places. I recently had two 6x6 fence posts rot out underground and basically just fall over, leaving only crumbles in the hole, so I imagine that's what will happen to my barn posts, if it hasn't already. What's the right response? I'm sure the first answer is to fix the runoff issue, but I wouldn't even really know where to begin. There's a big hill that runs off to the level spot where the barn is, and then continues on down from there, so there's just a lot of water that is dumped into that area.

If the post does rot out at and below ground level, is there a way to repair it without having to rebuild the whole barn around it? As I was rolling the idea around in my head, I kind of imagined shoring up the barn, cutting out the post, and putting in a concrete pier or something, before replacing the post.

 

[wngsprd]

I built a 10 by 24 pole barn many years ago for milking goats and storing hay. My Kubota lives in it now. I cut red cedar trees on my property for poles and now have one in a similar situation as you. I haven't put much into planning yet, but my first thought was to sink another pole next to the one going bad (which is a corner post) and connect them. So I'm interested in the replies you receive on your question, too.

 

[riptides]

Interesting problem. I have some buildings built with cedar posts. I recently took one down and popped the post out of the ground. Over the decades it had rotted, but at a very even pace around the edges. The core was still "good". If I had looked at it, just from the ground view, I would have been tempted to replace it, if I had saved the building.

In your case, I assume, these posts are just regular pressure treated wood.

I'd gully around the perimeter, and lay some drain tile to move some of the water away.

I'd dig holes next to the existing posts and brace them with more pressure treated wood, and also drop some concrete around them.

 

[Paddy]

Depending on your access, I would go with the concrete pier. No fun I'm sure. If you do two or three at a time, it won't take much bracing. Or galvanized plates bolted down deep.

I saw a presentation on inspecting power poles. The rot line is where the oxygen is, not down deep. from what I recall, 18 to 24". The entire city of Venice Italy is built on wood piers. They are so deep they don't rot. Same with the Brooklyn bridge if you can imagine. They built wood caissons that they sank under the load of stone.

 

[jeffinsgf]

It's not fun. I've been on a crew doing it. Shore up the pole with braces on each side. We used hydraulic jacks, too. Cut the pole off, dig out underneath, install a Sonotube, pour concrete, allow to cure, release jacks, let the pole settle onto the pier, and bolt it down. We used steel plates that screwed to the pier and then to the pole. Depending on the amount of shoring up you can do at once, it's best to take this job slow...like just a couple poles at a time.

 

[QRTRHRS]

Depending on your budget, you could go with Permacolumns. Those would allow you to do one at a time where as with concrete, you would realistically have to have enough for a delivery or have a small mixer on site. If the barn has metal siding, removing a panel or two might help provide better access. You need to make sure you have all the rot cut off. You might have to add short length of post to get back to ground level and fishplate the post to make it sturdy. Like jeffinsgf said, it's not fun.

 

[joshuabardwell]

Like jeffinsgf said, it's not fun.

Thanks for the suggestions everybody. I know that whatever the solution will be, it won't be fun, but I think that a repair is in my future, and whatever it is, it's got to be easier than rebuilding the barn--right?!

 

[jeffinsgf]

Just going to add this...

We poured the piers about 18" above grade, so that the poles were no longer in soil or water contact.

You're right, whatever you do, it will be less expensive and time consuming than rebuilding the barn!

 

[Danno1]

I saw a presentation on inspecting power poles. The rot line is where the oxygen is, not down deep. from what I recall, 18 to 24". The entire city of Venice Italy is built on wood piers. They are so deep they don't rot. Same with the Brooklyn bridge if you can imagine. They built wood caissons that they sank under the load of stone.

I've always heard it's the first 12 inches of soil that's biologically active.

The Tappan Zee Bridge is built on wood pilings too.


.

 

[riptides]

Thanks for the suggestions everybody. I know that whatever the solution will be, it won't be fun, but I think that a repair is in my future, and whatever it is, it's got to be easier than rebuilding the barn--right?!

Well...

How big is the barn, how old is the barn, how are other parts holding up?

I JUST went through this with two outbuildings a week or so ago. I took a kubota against them.

 

[joshuabardwell]

How big is the barn, how old is the barn, how are other parts holding up?

The barn is about 20x60, two stories. I assume it was built at the same time as the house, which was in the mid-eighties. It's holding up... okay. The roof is basically sound, but does have a few leaks. The siding is rotted out near the bottom in some places (same runoff issue). The 1" runners that cover the gaps between the planks are falling off here and there. There are some pieces of plywood flooring that could have been patched and could stand to be replaced. I don't know it to have any real structural problems, though.

What's the approximate going rate for a 20x60 pole barn, I wonder? There is a break-point where repairing the posts would be enough of the cost of a new barn that it would tip over.

 

[Bigkrank]

May be better to move it to a drier location. Last one that was done around here was moved and put 3 feet higher in the air on a block foundation.

 

[KYErik]

If there is no concrete on the rotten base of the posts, you may be able to run a PTO post hole digger down along side the post on the inside of the building, then cut it off 12" or so above grade, then finish uncovering the side of the post base with a hand post hole digger. Next pull the top of the rotted post over sideways into the hole and pull it out- then form and pour concrete up the cut off post and anchor the existing post along the side of the concrete (make one side of the concrete pier form even with the side of the base of the existing post).

 

[joshuabardwell]

May be better to move it to a drier location. Last one that was done around here was moved and put 3 feet higher in the air on a block foundation.

If/when the time comes, I'll definitely consider a more water-resistant footing. I don't think moving it to another location is going to be possible, though. I wonder if some kind of gully could catch and redirect the water coming off of the hill. Alternatively, it seems like concrete piers or a concrete footer would be pretty water-proof.

 

[joshuabardwell]

If there is no concrete on the rotten base of the posts, you may be able to run a PTO post hole digger down along side the post on the inside of the building, then cut it off 12" or so above grade, then finish uncovering the side of the post base with a hand post hole digger. Next pull the top of the rotted post over sideways into the hole and pull it out- then form and pour concrete up the cut off post and anchor the existing post along the side of the concrete (make one side of the concrete pier form even with the side of the base of the existing post).

I don't know whether there is concrete in the existing holes, but if I had to bet, I would bet not. There is certainly no concrete visible at ground level. Just a gravel pad. As for "inside the building"--not an issue, since the specific posts in question are in front of an open bay. The whole first floor of the barn is open to the front, except for a horse stall that was built out afterwards, and that stores my tractor.

 

[wyeguy]

We have problems with utility poles rotting a lot more quickly at the ground line when cement is poured around them. I recommend a concrete pier poured up high enough to keep the wood above soil contact as previously stated, or set new wood in the ground with 1" crushed rock packed around it.

We often use rock in soil where there's water issues. We can pack it well enough to hold the pole in place, but it drains water away from the pole as soon as the water has a place to go.

Personally, I'd never set wood in the ground with concrete right up to it. I'd at least leave a few inches gap around the perimeter with rock fill for the top foot or so of the "oxygen" zone.

You can use a concrete paver at the bottom of the hole if you're ever concerned about a pole or post driving itself into the ground. This is exactly what we use on hollow steel poles to keep them in place.

 

[Stimw]

I had some 6 X 6's rotted at the ground. I had a metal shop break some angle plates and I replaced the bottom part and bolted new to old with the plates. It's stronger than just the wood would be!
I painted the new treated wood with old motor oil, a few coats and let it soak in.

 

[SPIKER]

My Brother has done half dozen barns that had same types of issues.

His way,
1. Make sure the poles are sound above grade, add (level) 2x12 to poles securing them to sound wood.
2. Mark posts at the level point below the 2x12.
3. Dig down beside the pole inside the barn (or outside if the inside is concreted.) He used post hole auger on most of them but has had to manual a few due to access.
4. Jack up and support barn at that post using the 2x12 & farm jacks on a solid base. (if the barn had SANK jack up at least an inch above level.)
5. Cut off post, at the level mark (the JACK is raised up some for clearance of post/Sono tube.) the NEW post/concrete sono-tube are set at the LEVEL point and the barn set back down onto it and attached with plates.
6. Remove the 2x12 and go on to the NEXT post or finish up. in many cases it was one or two posts usually the ones on the corner where like yours water damp made it rot.

Horses had damaged his daughters barn/post in the back center. The horse pee and foot sloshing caused the center post to SINK and to ROT. it was replaced up about 5' with a treated built up post he made out of 2x6 screwed & Glued together with the center shorter and the barn post was cut to fit. about 4" and he lagged the TONG thru the new/old posts. There was a 16" or so concrete cookie under the old post and he ended up pouring 3 or 4 bags of quick crete into the open hole when it was ready to back fill. So far it is no longer "Sinking" or rotting on HER barn. The other barns were for pay repairs he does handyman work for $ since retiring.

I have a barn that is sinking/rotting too, it is only 24 x 30 or so but was totally trash when built using broken down skids etc by previous land owner. These posts have termites and ants in them & were I THINK red-elm or Red Oak just rough cut and stuck into the ground... Luckly it is one story with insulated garage doors for walls so real light.


Mark