Time to thin pines. Any guess on value.

[N80]

I know there are a lot of variables in this equation, including pulp wood prices (probably low), tree density, tree size, etc. But, I've got about 120 acres of planted pines pushing 15 years old. We had the state forester do a free assessment 4 years ago and according to him, it will be time for a first thinning in about a year.

I've got a wedding to pay for in about 15 months.

Tree density is high. Tree size, is variable of course, with the best areas having trees 8-10" diameter, 24-26" circumference at the base. Does anyone have a rough guess what range of profit one might expect per acre from such a thinning? Mill is fairly close. Access for trucks and equipment is excellent. Very little if any road improvement will be necessary.

 

[dave1949]

All I can tell you George is that I got $4/ton for chips here this July. That was my total net, the mill pays the logger for getting them there, and I have no idea how much.

I heard SC is really into pellet production for export to Europe. Maybe your wood is worth more than you think?

Having good access is a real plus for your final result and negotiating the price.

 

[newbury]

Product prices for most categories increased during the 3rd quarter with the exception of pine chip-n-saw and pulpwood. Stumpage prices increased from the previous quarter by 11.2% for mixed hardwood sawtimber, by 1.8% for pine sawtimber, and by 4.6% for hardwood pulpwood. Pine chip-n-saw and pulpwood fell by 5.2% and 2.7%
respectively

from http://msucares.com/forestry/prices/reports/2013/3.pdf

Right now it looks like pine isn't fetching what it did. Around Mississippi hardwood is doing better. This may be because for the last 20 years everyone has been planting pine.

 

[MossRoad]

I know there are a lot of variables in this equation, including pulp wood prices (probably low), tree density, tree size, etc. But, I've got about 120 acres of planted pines pushing 15 years old. We had the state forester do a free assessment 4 years ago and according to him, it will be time for a first thinning in about a year.

I've got a wedding to pay for in about 15 months.

Tree density is high. Tree size, is variable of course, with the best areas having trees 8-10" diameter, 24-26" circumference at the base. Does anyone have a rough guess what range of profit one might expect per acre from such a thinning? Mill is fairly close. Access for trucks and equipment is excellent. Very little if any road improvement will be necessary.

Call the state forester back and ask him what's the best way to get the most money for those trees in your area. It's a free service. If he tells you to call a logger, his brother is probably a logger. Skip that and hire a consulting forester. A consulting forester will try to get you as much money as he can out of those trees, while a logger will attempt to get as many trees out of you for as little as possible.

 

[Jstpssng]

Quarterly prices for your area, up to third quarter 2013;


SCFC- Current SC Timber Prices

From the SC Forestry Commission, in conjunction with a private organisation.
This could link to the same place Newbury gave... if so I apologise for the duplicate post.

 

[creekbend]

All I can tell you George is that I got $4/ton for chips here this July. That was my total net, the mill pays the logger for getting them there, and I have no idea how much.

I heard SC is really into pellet production for export to Europe. Maybe your wood is worth more than you think?

Having good access is a real plus for your final result and negotiating the price.

I just had dealings in chips from pines. If the Chipper also cleans the bark from the trees and limbs, the Paper Mills in SC will also take them, if they are cleaned by the chipper. The chips will fetch more, because the Paper Mills make a finer quality of Paper from the cleaned Chips. My logger took took 8 loads of chips to these mills a couple of weeks ago. The loads averaged 36-38 ton each. Best wishes. BTW, I was told that a NEW Chipper costs 1.4 million. The chipper that my logger used cost $35,000 and they worked to fix it for two months.

 

[dave1949]

I just had dealings in chips from pines. If the Chipper also cleans the bark from the trees and limbs, the Paper Mills in SC will also take them, if they are cleaned by the chipper. The chips will fetch more, because the Paper Mills make a finer quality of Paper from the cleaned Chips. My logger took took 8 loads of chips to these mills a couple of weeks ago. The loads averaged 36-38 ton each. Best wishes. BTW, I was told that a NEW Chipper costs 1.4 million. The chipper that my logger used cost $35,000 and they worked to fix it for two months.

My harvest was really a lot of junk wood and part of the deal was they had to clear it all off, which they did a good job of. It was mixed hard and soft woods, no good saw logs in the lot.

I'm in the process of making a field, but even if it had been a harvest for forestry purposes, the thing to do would be have been to clear it off and start over.

The chips were used to fire a steam boiler that generates power for the mill.

 

[newbury]

Quarterly prices for your area, up to third quarter 2013;


SCFC- Current SC Timber Prices

From the SC Forestry Commission, in conjunction with a private organisation.
This could link to the same place Newbury gave... if so I apologise for the duplicate post.

Thanks for another good link.
The graphs are what like MSU used to produce quarterly.
example: http://msucares.com/forestry/prices/reports/2013/2.pdf

 

[MossRoad]

Quarterly prices for your area, up to third quarter 2013;


SCFC- Current SC Timber Prices

From the SC Forestry Commission, in conjunction with a private organisation.
This could link to the same place Newbury gave... if so I apologise for the duplicate post.

And that link highly recommends to contact a consulting forester, too.

 

[creekbend]

And that link highly recommends to contact a consulting forester, too.

A consulting Forester will also make sure that the property to be logged is clearly marked and flagged. This insures that no logging will be done on your neighbor's property. BTW, the Forester and Logger will be responsible if any trees are cut on your neighbor's side. At least, this was on the Contract that I signed.

 

[N80]

I have a consulting forester. Sort of a family connection. I assume he is legit.....I know he is quite successful and very wealthy. He has done one job for me on a small 5 acre plot. No contract, just cut and go. No roads had to be cut or anything. Did not abut any property lines. Got what I thought was real good money but this was a final thinning of fairly large pines. These went for pulp. The remaining trees will go for timber in about 10 years.

So yes, I will have a forester. Will obviously get a contract for a job this big that extends to three property lines. But, I'm not chained to this guy. Hardly know him. He seems well respected but also known as a, well, shrewd, maybe even cutthroat, business man. There are plenty of others in the region. I really have no idea how to choose since I don't have the foggiest idea what I should be expecting to get per acre. Seems like a bit of a crap shoot with a lot of potential for getting ripped off. If I have no idea what the value of my trees is, how do I make a decision about who to contract with? Do they give estimates or guarantees? I'm sure I can google this and even call the state forester.

 

[newbury]

While we have a forestry thread going let me again tell you what my local State Forester told me -
The big box stores (Lowes, HD etc.) are being pressured to buy lumber that was grown in a "certified forest". Which basically means it was grown in a forest with an approved management plan according to several standards.
He thinks the results will be that at some time in the near future a lot of the mills will start giving priority to trees from "certified forests" because they will have a better chance of marketing the wood. He also indicated that right now since this stuff is sort of new forest management plans can be real simple and pass the test. And part of his job is to write the plans for people with forests in Mississippi. He's writing mine.

There are a lot of resources on the web telling how to properly write a plan, but since I'm getting one basically for paying taxes I'll let the state forester do it.

 

[Jstpssng]

I have a consulting forester. Sort of a family connection. I assume he is legit.....I know he is quite successful and very wealthy. He has done one job for me on a small 5 acre plot. No contract, just cut and go. No roads had to be cut or anything. Did not abut any property lines. Got what I thought was real good money but this was a final thinning of fairly large pines. These went for pulp. The remaining trees will go for timber in about 10 years.

So yes, I will have a forester. Will obviously get a contract for a job this big that extends to three property lines. But, I'm not chained to this guy. Hardly know him. He seems well respected but also known as a, well, shrewd, maybe even cutthroat, business man. There are plenty of others in the region. I really have no idea how to choose since I don't have the foggiest idea what I should be expecting to get per acre. Seems like a bit of a crap shoot with a lot of potential for getting ripped off. If I have no idea what the value of my trees is, how do I make a decision about who to contract with? Do they give estimates or guarantees? I'm sure I can google this and even call the state forester.

First of all, I laud your willingness to hire a professional forester before starting the job. Shop aroumd though as if you were buying a used car; get references and if possible visit a couple of jobs which they supervised. (Also do the same with any logging contractor before allowing any equipment on your property.)
With all due respect though you're going at this backwards; the price should be your last concern after being certain that all of your other concerns are being met.

(I would be cutting it myself... partly because it would be done my way, also to maximise my profit and maybe pay for a new implement... but mostly because I enjoy doing it. :thumbsup:

 

[dave1949]

Since you are doing a thinning, you don't want a hack logger that will reduce the value of what's left for the eventual timber harvest. I would ask any consulting forester if they know a logger that does this sort of harvest, and I'd probably ask for a reference and eyeball the result of some recent work in person.

Doing the selection of what is to be cut, and having a good working relationship with the right logger is the value of the consulting forester in your situation I think. They should also help you get the best deal, but the remaining stand condition is financially important too.

Selection may not be of much importance in a plantation where the trees are all the same species, planted in regular rows, and just being thinned.

 

[Jstpssng]

While we have a forestry thread going let me again tell you what my local State Forester told me -
The big box stores (Lowes, HD etc.) are being pressured to buy lumber that was grown in a "certified forest". Which basically means it was grown in a forest with an approved management plan according to several standards.
He thinks the results will be that at some time in the near future a lot of the mills will start giving priority to trees from "certified forests" because they will have a better chance of marketing the wood. He also indicated that right now since this stuff is sort of new forest management plans can be real simple and pass the test. And part of his job is to write the plans for people with forests in Mississippi. He's writing mine.

There are a lot of resources on the web telling how to properly write a plan, but since I'm getting one basically for paying taxes I'll let the state forester do it.

It's already happening... some mills will pay extra for certified wood and/or give preferential treatment for it. (I.E. only buying certified wood when markets are tight.) IMHO it's a house of cards...

A simple way for a small woodlot owner to cover the bases is to become a Tree Farm
https://www.treefarmsystem.org/

 

[newbury]

some mills will pay extra for certified wood [/url]

That really made me chuckle when my forester told me "certified wood".

Yup, I'll certify and notarize that this is wood.

 

[N80]

The state forester prepared a pretty comprehensive management plan but I have no idea what qualifies for the timber industry. I'm sure it will be a moving target just like the "organic" certification for food. All fluff, all marketing to take advantage of gullible consumers.....but that is neither here nor there, if it gets you more money per ton you have to play the game I guess.

My pines are not in rows. They were hand planted very successfully but there is also a significant mix of volunteer pines too. I'm not an expert but it seems like they have grown very fast and very well. In some of the areas that got more volunteer pines the trees appear thinner.

As far as researching a forester I obviously want someone who is reputable and knows what he is doing, but price is still very important to me. That's the piece of the puzzle that seems so nebulous. How can I know if I'm getting paid a fair amount for the wood that actually comes off my place? What keeps them from looking at an acre of trees and seeing $10 worth of wood (after expenses) but only paying me $5? What keeps them from hauling off 10 truck loads and only paying me for 5? I'm not saying this is a common practice, but the opportunity for dishonesty is surely a temptation.

 

[dave1949]

It's already happening... some mills will pay extra for certified wood and/or give preferential treatment for it. (I.E. only buying certified wood when markets are tight.) IMHO it's a house of cards...

A simple way for a small woodlot owner to cover the bases is to become a Tree Farm
https://www.treefarmsystem.org/

It's interesting that there are at least two competing certified wood organizations. SFI (Sustainable Forestry Institute), and FSC (Forest Stewardship Council). They have already had some legislative battles for dominance in Maine.

I am not sure how effective these programs are in achieving truly sustainable forests. I know in principle that a market mechanism to promote forestry practices that contribute to a healthy ecosystem is not a bad thing. None, that I have read about on their practices, are particularly "green" IMO.

 

[dave1949]

The state forester prepared a pretty comprehensive management plan but I have no idea what qualifies for the timber industry. I'm sure it will be a moving target just like the "organic" certification for food. All fluff, all marketing to take advantage of gullible consumers.....but that is neither here nor there, if it gets you more money per ton you have to play the game I guess.

My pines are not in rows. They were hand planted very successfully but there is also a significant mix of volunteer pines too. I'm not an expert but it seems like they have grown very fast and very well. In some of the areas that got more volunteer pines the trees appear thinner.

As far as researching a forester I obviously want someone who is reputable and knows what he is doing, but price is still very important to me. That's the piece of the puzzle that seems so nebulous. How can I know if I'm getting paid a fair amount for the wood that actually comes off my place? What keeps them from looking at an acre of trees and seeing $10 worth of wood (after expenses) but only paying me $5? What keeps them from hauling off 10 truck loads and only paying me for 5? I'm not saying this is a common practice, but the opportunity for dishonesty is surely a temptation.

In reality, unless you ride with every truck load that leaves your harvest, you can't absolutely know you won't be cheated. That's why you use a forester you trust to connect you with a logger they trust.

SC may have laws like Maine that require every load of wood to have a load slip on board, and you have the right (and responsibility) to get copies of all the scale slips from where it was delivered. In my case, the mill provided a weekly computerized summary of each load; full weight coming in, empty weight going out, and the net. The number of loads agreed with what I saw leaving the harvest.

I was paid weekly directly by the mill, so no concern about a logger who I have to hunt down to get paid. There will always be some bad eggs, but the forester you are paying for should steer you away from them. I would always arrange it such that you are paying an independent forester's fees, and the forester has nothing but their reputation to worry about in terms of value.

 

[N80]

None, that I have read about on their practices, are particularly "green" IMO.

Agreed. Pine forest monocultures are no more green than a corn field. They may be sustainable, just like a corn field, but that does not mean that they bring any ecological or environmental benefit to anyone or anything. "Green", "Organic" etc, etc are purely marketing terms that take advantage of a prevailing cultural interest in being "green" or being "organic" along with the prevailing culutural trend of well meaning but, quite frankly, ignorant consumers. Once the government and courts get involved the standards deteriorate to benefit the highest bidder....if you get my drift.

But again, whether it is a government supported marketing scheme for big timber or corporate farms is not the point. If you want more money, you play the game.