Time to thin pines. Any guess on value.

[newbury]

The state forester prepared a pretty comprehensive management plan but I have no idea what qualifies for the timber industry. I'm sure it will be a moving target just like the "organic" certification for food. All fluff, all marketing to take advantage of gullible consumers.....but that is neither here nor there, if it gets you more money per ton you have to play the game I guess.

My pines are not in rows. They were hand planted very successfully but there is also a significant mix of volunteer pines too. I'm not an expert but it seems like they have grown very fast and very well. In some of the areas that got more volunteer pines the trees appear thinner.

As far as researching a forester I obviously want someone who is reputable and knows what he is doing, but price is still very important to me. That's the piece of the puzzle that seems so nebulous. How can I know if I'm getting paid a fair amount for the wood that actually comes off my place? What keeps them from looking at an acre of trees and seeing $10 worth of wood (after expenses) but only paying me $5? What keeps them from hauling off 10 truck loads and only paying me for 5? I'm not saying this is a common practice, but the opportunity for dishonesty is surely a temptation.

From what I can tell around here (northeast Mississippi) it is a common practice. There are several loggers that buy low and sell high. I've even seen CL postings warning about certain loggers who would only high grade a clear cut and leave and unplantable mess, who wouldn't pay properly.

here's a link for tips on selecting a forester
SS-FOR-16/FR125: Selecting a Consulting Forester

 

[Robert_in_NY]

Here we have the forester mark the trees and he puts it out to bid to multiple loggers. They all bid on the same trees and you can choose from their bids. But our woodlots are smaller so it may be something that works better in this area than in others.

 

[N80]

I would always arrange it such that you are paying an independent forester's fees, and the forester has nothing but their reputation to worry about in terms of value.

I just assumed the forester got a percentage of the total. This could be a good thing though since it would be in his best interest to keep the logger honest.

 

[oosik]

Good golly, Molly. I had my 80 acres logged and it certainly wasn't any way that complicated. The fact that it was only pine probably helped too. No Gov. management plan, no state forester, no organically certified trees - just cut down the ones I want, haul them to the mill and get your money. I know exactly how I want to handle my trees and certainly do not need the Gov. involved in any part of this process. Just getting ROW access to my property some thirty two years ago was more than sufficient involvement with local Gov..

 

[N80]

Here we have the forester mark the trees and he puts it out to bid to multiple loggers. They all bid on the same trees and you can choose from their bids. But our woodlots are smaller so it may be something that works better in this area than in others.

I think that would work for a late (last) thinning on a small plot. In my case, the trees are very dense and it is at least 110 acres. In this type of situation the effectiveness of the thinning is almost entirely up to the guy sitting in the feller/buncher.

 

[N80]

Good golly, Molly. I had my 80 acres logged and it certainly wasn't any way that complicated. The fact that it was only pine probably helped too. No Gov. management plan, no state forester, no organically certified trees - just cut down the ones I want, haul them to the mill and get your money. I know exactly how I want to handle my trees and certainly do not need the Gov. involved in any part of this process. Just getting ROW access to my property some thirty two years ago was more than sufficient involvement with local Gov..

Timber certification will probably have government, or at least court, involvement at some point but you'd only be dealing with it if you wanted to be "certified".

But let's not delude ourselves, the government is involved in our property no matter where we live. As my brother-in-law the rancher always says, "it ain't your land, you are just renting it from the government". And when you think about it, it is very true. Sad, but true.

 

[dave1949]

I just assumed the forester got a percentage of the total. This could be a good thing though since it would be in his best interest to keep the logger honest.

Sometimes that method is used. It encourages the forester to get the best value out of the harvest for you. It may be a good thing for sawlogs where correct selection and grading come into play. On the other hand, it may temp the forester to high grade in order to earn more.

 

[N80]

it may temp the forester to high grade in order to earn more.

True. I think in my case, with relatively high density and, to my eye, pretty high uniformity, it might not matter.

 

[oosik]

Actually George you are totally correct. The government taxes my land as though I have a successfully operating gold mine. My only salvation is that my land is classified as agricultural.

 

[dave1949]

Actually George you are totally correct. The government taxes my land as though I have a successfully operating gold mine. My only salvation is that my land is classified as agricultural.

Maybe you can add the cost of getting the ROW into your IRS timber basis? :laughing:

 

[N80]

Here in SC it is easy to get an agricultural classification just with trees. When we first got the place we forgot to designate it as agricultural and the taxes were absurdly high, to the point that I would not have been able to afford the taxes and would not have been able to keep the land. Fortunately (and miraculously) this was resolved with a phone call and a fax and I did not ever have to pay the non-agricultural rate and the taxes went from shockingly high to reasonably low.

I did build a cabin on the place and it is taxed as a second home, minimum of two acres. The taxes on the cabin and its two acres are almost three times as high as the remaining 235 acres! If I run electric to my tractor shed (open sided pole barn) I'd have to pay taxes on it too.:thumbdown:

 

[Jstpssng]

Timber certification will probably have government, or at least court, involvement at some point but you'd only be dealing with it if you wanted to be "certified".

But let's not delude ourselves, the government is involved in our property no matter where we live. As my brother-in-law the rancher always says, "it ain't your land, you are just renting it from the government". And when you think about it, it is very true. Sad, but true.

Actually it's a voluntary program, and the landowner pays for independent auditors to come in and check that certain requirements are met. (Similar to the tree farm program which I linked to earlier.) There also people following the wood supply from stump to retailer, to ensure that certain standards are met.

True. I think in my case, with relatively high density and, to my eye, pretty high uniformity, it might not matter.

Good golly, Molly. I had my 80 acres logged and it certainly wasn't any way that complicated. The fact that it was only pine probably helped too. No Gov. management plan, no state forester, no organically certified trees - just cut down the ones I want, haul them to the mill and get your money. I know exactly how I want to handle my trees and certainly do not need the Gov. involved in any part of this process. Just getting ROW access to my property some thirty two years ago was more than sufficient involvement with local Gov..

It's good that you know what you want, and are able to ensure that you get it. Too many people hire someone without makinng it clear what they expect or making sure that the contractor is capable/willing to deliver what they promise.

Here we have the forester mark the trees and he puts it out to bid to multiple loggers. They all bid on the same trees and you can choose from their bids. But our woodlots are smaller so it may be something that works better in this area than in others.

I would still ask for references, first to choose a forester then to pick a logging contractor. In your state foresters don't need to be licensed if memory serves me; anybody with a paint gun can sell their services. However if you go to the Society of American Foresters web

 

[oosik]

George,
Taxes here are a little different but basically its - "get all we can squeeze out of the people". Ha, ha - I even went for senior citizen discount - which was OK for about eight years, then they changed the Sr discount and the "discount" was actually more than with no discount. My house sits on an imaginary five acres and then there are the seventy five other acres. The house + five is about 2X the valuation of the remaining seventy five acres. And to think - when we came down from Alaska in '82 the taxes on the entire eighty acres was $16/ year. Now its 200 times that amount. A lot of this land value increase is all the city folks finding the advantages of country living. Fortunately all the land around me is zoned agricultural, which in our area means minimum lot size is 20 acres and only one single family residence per 20 acres. Tends to keep involvement with neighbors to a minimum. My nearest neighbor is 4.5 miles away. There is a saying out here - "If I can see you - you are trespassing".

 

[N80]

In your state foresters don't need to be licensed if memory serves me; anybody with a paint gun can sell their services. However if you go to the Society of American Foresters web

I looked briefly and there are specific criteria for consulting foresters in SC but I don't know if that means licensed or not, but it probably does.

 

[Robert_in_NY]

Actually it's a voluntary program, and the landowner pays for independent auditors to come in and check that certain requirements are met. (Similar to the tree farm program which I linked to earlier.) There also people following the wood supply from stump to retailer, to ensure that certain standards are met.

It's good that you know what you want, and are able to ensure that you get it. Too many people hire someone without makinng it clear what they expect or making sure that the contractor is capable/willing to deliver what they promise.

I would still ask for references, first to choose a forester then to pick a logging contractor. In your state foresters don't need to be licensed if memory serves me; anybody with a paint gun can sell their services. However if you go to the Society of American Foresters web

There are a couple reputable foresters in my area who I would trust. But I'll agree that if your new to the game or area then ask around.

We were looking at buying a 35 acre parcel a few years back and the owner had one of the foresters come in. He put it out to bid and most of the prices coming back were around 10-12k then someone bid $21k because he believed a lot of it was veneer grade. There was around 20 acres of woods on that parcel. Owner did well, sold the timber and then sold the land for double its actual worth. City fella bought it for hunting.

 

[Larro Darro]

Last year we had 20 acres of slash pine thinned. It was 16 years old. What we did was take out three quarters of the trees. The way they did it was to cut all the trees on one row, and then half the trees on the next row. They did it in such a way that two thinned rows are together and two clear cut rows are between the next two rows of thinned trees. We ask around and found that getting loggers on small plots like that isn't always easy. But we found a crew that would do it, and as far as I know, we got paid for the trees they cut. We have 28 acres of longleaf pines that are 14 years old. Not sure when we will thin them.

Larro

 

[N80]

and as far as I know, we got paid for the trees they cut.Larro

I'm not sure what you mean by that. I always know if I get paid or not......:laughing: But seriously, do you have any idea how much you got paid for the 20 acres? That is really what I am trying to get an idea about. I have no idea if I should be expecting $10 an acre, $100 an acre or $1000 an acre.....although I'm guessing it will be between $10 and $100 an acre.

 

[Jstpssng]

I'm not sure what you mean by that. I always know if I get paid or not......:laughing: But seriously, do you have any idea how much you got paid for the 20 acres? That is really what I am trying to get an idea about. I have no idea if I should be expecting $10 an acre, $100 an acre or $1000 an acre.....although I'm guessing it will be between $10 and $100 an acre.

It depends on how tall the trees are, how they are going to be thinned,... my first thought was a row thinning as L Darro suggested but you say they aren't planted in rows.

I'll get jumped all over for this I'm sure ... but a rough rule of thumb in a dense stand is a cord of biomass(total tree volume) for every foot of height. You will probably remove about 1/2 of the total volume.

 

[Larro Darro]

I'm not sure what you mean by that. I always know if I get paid or not......:laughing: But seriously, do you have any idea how much you got paid for the 20 acres? That is really what I am trying to get an idea about. I have no idea if I should be expecting $10 an acre, $100 an acre or $1000 an acre.....although I'm guessing it will be between $10 and $100 an acre.

I will have to look at my old tax records and the load tickets to figure out what I got paid. Half of the pines were mine, but half were mine and my sister's. And I don't remember how much we made off them. I will try to look back and see what I can find out.

Larro

 

[MossRoad]

...

I'll get jumped all over for this I'm sure ... but a rough rule of thumb in a dense stand is a cord of biomass(total tree volume) for every foot of height. You will probably remove about 1/2 of the total volume.

Is that one cord per what? Acre, tree, I don't understand....