Should stores be closed on Thanksgiving?

[RobertBrown]

I wasn't necessarily comparing shopping to hunting.
I was trying to demonstrate that she had a choice and she choose to "hunt" rather than to be at home with her family. I'm not making any assertions about neglect....or that hunting is what you should be doing on Thanksgiving. I don't know if the store was open (I don't care), she made a choice, people do that. Perhaps this choice demonstrates the degrading moral values in our country. You don't have to look far to find a much better example of same.
Perhaps her purchases were for her family, I can't say.
I hope your not implying we pass a law about stores being open on Thanksgiving. I think that would be an entirely different conversation, moving this thread from "Rural living' to "Friendly Politics" .
Lot's of people have to work on the Holiday whether the stores are open or not, they made that choice when they took the job. There was a time when I worked every Thanksgiving. I didn't mind at all, but that's beside the point.
Some people get really depressed on Holidays and would be better off working instead of dwelling on the past or whatever.

 

[CurlyDave]

Everything you said is true, that is the overall insidiousness of the situation..

Thanks for recognizing that truth.

Your argument is based on necessity. Necessity can be as artificial and manipulated as a Black Friday sale price though--and it is. You are assuming there is no alternative, when in fact there are better alternatives that are easily achievable in a society where their value is recognized.

Not quite sure what you are advocating here, but it seems to be that we should have a society where we have better alternatives, especially for people at the bottom of the wage scale. I am not sure this is possible with the very real laws of economics. But, one of the great things about our society is that if you can find one that offers more of what you want, you are free to go there. Now, I happen to like ours just the way it is. You also have the freedom to try to change ours to match what you want, but I have the freedom to oppose this, which I think leads down the road to common disaster rather than common good.

I very much doubt that you will find a society anywhere on earth, in our lifetime, which is more to your liking than the one we have right now. In fact there are 20 plus million illegal immigrants in the US right now who are in total agreement with me. When they came here, they endured hardships on the way, and paid exorbitant sums to be smuggled in, knowing all the while that they would be second or even third-class residents. Only able to work under the table for low wages, always at the mercy of their boss, and never able to complain to authority. Yet, every single one of them voluntarily voted with their feet and came here because the very lowest rung on our ladder is better than what they could aspire to in their home countries.

Maybe I'm turning into an "old guy" but it seems the less attention we pay to the common good, the less good we commonly find.

When I think of "the common good", it consists of producing the best opportunity for as many people as possible to improve their living standards and rise out of poverty, real poverty, the kind those illegals were escaping when they came here, not the U.S. government defined poverty. The "common good" also involves the opportunity for all citizens to increase their own fortunes in life and rise as high as they want to work for.

For a lot of the people who work at WalMart or similar jobs, they made a choice, way back when, to live on the lower rungs of the US economic ladder. Everyone in the US has the chance to make this choice. I know when I was in High School, my teachers told me again and again that the choices I made then, would influence the rest of my life. If I worked hard, went to class every day, did the homework, and took science and math classes I would do well. If I cut classes, didn't apply myself, and didn't work, I wouldn't do as well in later life.

It turns out they were right. Never once did I ditch school and go drink beer and smoke left-handed cigarettes in some secluded place. I studied and then went to engineering school. I know I have worked some Thanksgivings, but I have never whined about it. I did it voluntarily, because I had some kind of project at work and I could get a lot further along. I know most years it was a paid Holiday, as well as the Friday after. The guys who ditched school and "hung out" somewhere to their liking, they took their days off early in life. Now they have to work Thanksgiving or not have a job. That is a choice they made way back when, and it does nothing to advance the "common good" to let them escape the consequence of their early poor choices.

 

[dave1949]

I wasn't necessarily comparing shopping to hunting.
I was trying to demonstrate that she had a choice and she choose to "hunt" rather than to be at home with her family. I'm not making any assertions about neglect....or that hunting is what you should be doing on Thanksgiving. I don't know if the store was open (I don't care), she made a choice, people do that. Perhaps this choice demonstrates the degrading moral values in our country. You don't have to look far to find a much better example of same.
Perhaps her purchases were for her family, I can't say.
I hope your not implying we pass a law about stores being open on Thanksgiving. I think that would be an entirely different conversation, moving this thread from "Rural living' to "Friendly Politics" .
Lot's of people have to work on the Holiday whether the stores are open or not, they made that choice when they took the job. There was a time when I worked every Thanksgiving. I didn't mind at all, but that's beside the point.
Some people get really depressed on Holidays and would be better off working instead of dwelling on the past or whatever.

Living in one of three states that do have a law saying stores (over 5,000 sqft in Maine) will be closed on certain holidays with a few exceptions, I don't find that strange. I've lived on other countries with much stricter and more reduced store hours or days laws and managed just fine.

Being open on holidays is not a question of necessity for most retail sales locations. The people learned to plan ahead and the merchants did just fine too. That being the case, doing business on a holiday that could be done at other times is a matter of choice. I think it is a matter of choosing values too, which I believe is important. That's where it gets sticky; who determines values?

The camped-out lady with her child in your example was not doing much of a parenting job in the process, I'd say her values are not correct and there could well be a societal cost attached to that. Just like the STOP sign runner, people are willing to make high-cost choices all the time--if allowed. There are many, many social values protected or promoted by laws. Most of them are in the nature of cost avoidance. Monetary costs certainly, but also quality of life costs.

It's a complex subject for sure. They say you can't argue with success. Well, you can't argue with failure either. :laughing: Are we, as a society built around a culture, succeeding or failing? I'm not always sure.

 

[dave1949]

Thanks for recognizing that truth.

Your argument is based on necessity. Necessity can be as artificial and manipulated as a Black Friday sale price though--and it is. You are assuming there is no alternative, when in fact there are better alternatives that are easily achievable in a society where their value is recognized.

Not quite sure what you are advocating here, but it seems to be that we should have a society where we have better alternatives, especially for people at the bottom of the wage scale. I am not sure this is possible with the very real laws of economics. But, one of the great things about our society is that if you can find one that offers more of what you want, you are free to go there. Now, I happen to like ours just the way it is. You also have the freedom to try to change ours to match what you want, but I have the freedom to oppose this, which I think leads down the road to common disaster rather than common good.

I very much doubt that you will find a society anywhere on earth, in our lifetime, which is more to your liking than the one we have right now. In fact there are 20 plus million illegal immigrants in the US right now who are in total agreement with me. When they came here, they endured hardships on the way, and paid exorbitant sums to be smuggled in, knowing all the while that they would be second or even third-class residents. Only able to work under the table for low wages, always at the mercy of their boss, and never able to complain to authority. Yet, every single one of them voluntarily voted with their feet and came here because the very lowest rung on our ladder is better than what they could aspire to in their home countries.

Maybe I'm turning into an "old guy" but it seems the less attention we pay to the common good, the less good we commonly find.

When I think of "the common good", it consists of producing the best opportunity for as many people as possible to improve their living standards and rise out of poverty, real poverty, the kind those illegals were escaping when they came here, not the U.S. government defined poverty. The "common good" also involves the opportunity for all citizens to increase their own fortunes in life and rise as high as they want to work for.

For a lot of the people who work at WalMart or similar jobs, they made a choice, way back when, to live on the lower rungs of the US economic ladder. Everyone in the US has the chance to make this choice. I know when I was in High School, my teachers told me again and again that the choices I made then, would influence the rest of my life. If I worked hard, went to class every day, did the homework, and took science and math classes I would do well. If I cut classes, didn't apply myself, and didn't work, I wouldn't do as well in later life.

It turns out they were right. Never once did I ditch school and go drink beer and smoke left-handed cigarettes in some secluded place. I studied and then went to engineering school. I know I have worked some Thanksgivings, but I have never whined about it. I did it voluntarily, because I had some kind of project at work and I could get a lot further along. I know most years it was a paid Holiday, as well as the Friday after. The guys who ditched school and "hung out" somewhere to their liking, they took their days off early in life. Now they have to work Thanksgiving or not have a job. That is a choice they made way back when, and it does nothing to advance the "common good" to let them escape the consequence of their early poor choices.

Dave, the question being discussed is, Should stores be open on Thanksgiving? Not, Do we have the best economic system? From experience, I know that I could live an enjoyable life with much the same opportunities in at least a handful of Western European countries.

Does the success of the US economic system hinge on retail stores being open on Thanksgiving? No, but if it did, I wouldn't be bragging it up as the best there is. My point is exactly that, economic success is entirely possible while still allowing most people to enjoy a holiday.

The fact that many retail workers are economically, or for reasons of job security, coerced or tempted into working on a holiday is an artificially contrived necessity. Our economic engine will not grind to halt if they do not.

I'm glad that you had the capabilities to succeed. As a high school Industrial Arts teacher long ago, I can assure you that that is not the universal condition. It really isn't a valid choice for perhaps 30%-40% of the population to become an engineer of any quality, no matter how hard they try. Truly capable and gifted engineers make up a much, much smaller percentage than that. It just isn't valid to overlay your personal capabilities and experiences on millions of others and use it as a yard stick.

Now, we can effectively punish those less fortunate folks, or, for the common good we can accept that all in all, it is to our advantage that they enjoy a better quality of life. I don't mean that in an altruistic sense, either.

 

[Soundguy]

'should they be closed'?

who would decide who gets to be open? you?

who would enforce this? the govt?

you really want more govt controll and oversight in our lives?

mandated closures and artificial control of the market ( more than now ).

no thanks.

I'm all for free market.

if I don't want to go to a store on thanksgiving.. I stay home. what others do on their holidays don't bother me.

free will.. etc... live let live.. etc..

 

[Soundguy]

In all the discussions I've had about this, there is one thing that doesn't seem to get mentioned. I'm sure there are plenty of those employees that are happy for the extra day of pay. I know when I was struggling financially in my youth (before I had paid holidays) I hated that I was forced to take those days off, I was losing income that I needed especially right before the holidays.

Brian

i get doubletime on thanksgiving, christmas and new years day.. I try to at least work a single or double shift on 2 of those 3 days....

 

[dave1949]

'should they be closed'?

who would decide who gets to be open? you? The law is written by the legislature, elected folks.

who would enforce this? the govt? Same folks who enforce all the laws.

you really want more govt controll and oversight in our lives? We are the government, we have to work at it and not succumb to "they/the government" thinking.

mandated closures and artificial control of the market ( more than now ). Has nothing to do with the market. No price or production controls are involved.

no thanks.

I'm all for free market.

if I don't want to go to a store on thanksgiving.. I stay home. what others do on their holidays don't bother me.

free will.. etc... live let live.. etc.. Free will is great for those who can afford to exercise it.

I hear ya SoundGuy. I just wonder if indifference to the erosion of traditional values comes at a high cost. I know it's just as bad to attempt to lock down social norms, lots of dangers there too.

 

[Soundguy]

I hear ya SoundGuy. I just wonder if indifference to the erosion of traditional values comes at a high cost. I know it's just as bad to attempt to lock down social norms, lots of dangers there too.

anyone who thins that 'we the people' are still at the helm is drinking the coolaide.

free society is not free. there are costs. once cost of freedom is putting up with the (legal) practices of others that do not hurt us.. but that we may not be fond of.

Same deal witht he people that bark at holiday decorations. I know a mixed group that has some jewish and some christain families.. and they nearly sue over a mennorah and a christmas treel.

for pete's sake.. put both up and have a great winter solstice! ( )

I like a tree... seeing some other culture or religon's icons don't bother me one bit.

full rich history.. I like em all... even the new ones. You wanna celebrate kawanza? go for it. don't bother me one bit.. I'm happy for anyone wishing to celebrate in peace.

 

[TomSeller]

. I'm not making any assertions about neglect....or that hunting is what you should be doing on Thanksgiving. .

If someone is turkey hunting on Thanksgiving Day, dinner might be a little late? And with my aim, the wifey better have a ham ready to go.

 

[murphy1244]

i get doubletime on thanksgiving, christmas and new years day.. I try to at least work a single or double shift on 2 of those 3 days....

Oh yes KAAA Ching I remember only having Christmas and New Years day off and I could of worked those.