Pros/cons of tier 4?

[DeereMann]

I don't think that's quite what went on. They just backed the fuel off a tiny bit to get under 25HP to get under the rules.

true dat - they also got the double benny of lower NOx. Correct that EPA regulated engine power band starts at 25 hp for the next higher regulation. But.....Deere / Yanmar went further down (i.e. not 24.9999...hp) to get the NOx down.

Kuboman is right too......it depends what EPA engine power band you are in..."Tier IV" does not mean the same thing in each band. Each band has it's own unique emissions limits (sometimes they're combined). In general, the smaller the engine, the less stringent the regulation. Because EPA know they'd put entire engine classes out of business with stringent regulations. The emissions controls required would cost more than the engines themsleves.

Therefore, we have micromanaging at ridiculous levels. More government make-work.

:hissyfit:

OK - I'm better now.

 

[JDTank]

I have the 1026R. The last model year for it was 2012 (per EPA exhaust emisisons change for engines built starting 2013).

That is correct, they reduced power to make the engine less efficient = lower exhaust temp = lower NOx formation in the exhaust = "new" model 1025 reflecting the lower power output.

So.....you get lower power for the same fuel consumption just to have lower NOx from a low hour use engine. Great deal, eh? :thumbdown:

Actually, that isn't the case.

Engines with a rating of 25 HP and under, do not need to comply with the same Tier 4 specs that 26 + HP engines do. It was MUCH easier to simply lose 1 horsepower, and opt out of installing emissions equipment. This is why the 1026R became the 1025R. It does not require a DPF system due to it's low horsepower rating. I predict the new 2025R will be VERY popular for this reason. It will not have a DPF system, yet the 2032 will. The 2025 can also take the new 270A backhoe that installs in a minute flat with no 3PT changes required, and no sub frame to fight with. For whatever reason, the 2032 machine can NOT take the new backhoe.

 

[genesusie]

The 1026R became the 1025R, but the engine is different. The displacement on the 1025R is more than the 1026R.

 

[DeereMann]

JD Dealer told me the 1025 engine does have a DPF. I did not investigate it personally, so don't know if this is factual. My EPA regulatory chart at work indicates it should need a DPF......the particulate count drops from 0.30 to 0.03 grams per kWm/hour. Tenths of a gram limit requires a filter in the exhaust stream, in my experience at work.

 

[murphy1244]

JD Dealer told me the 1025 engine does have a DPF. I did not investigate it personally, so don't know if this is factual. My EPA regulatory chart at work indicates it should need a DPF......the particulate count drops from 0.30 to 0.03 grams per kWm/hour. Tenths of a gram limit requires a filter in the exhaust stream, in my experience at work.

The 1025 does not need anything since it is a 25HP motor.

 

[DeereMann]

Murph - yes, the <25 hp engines do need a DPF for 2013 & beyond, that is the low particulate EPA limit I quoted above - same as the bigger engines now. What is different is the NOx limit - the <25 hp engines do not need an SCR, VGT, etc. to reduce NOx. However, they do ****** the fuel injection timing to meet the slightly lower Tier IV NOx limit on small engines. I have the EPA chart right in front of me at work.

BTW, the 1025R engine rating dropped to 24.2 gross hp with a larger displacement engine from the 1026R of 25.2 hp. That's a 5% reduction, not insignificant. That's also how they cool the engine - inefficiency.

 

[genesusie]

Murph - yes, the <25 hp engines do need a DPF for 2013 & beyond, that is the low particulate EPA limit I quoted above - same as the bigger engines now. What is different is the NOx limit - the <25 hp engines do not need an SCR, VGT, etc. to reduce NOx. However, they do ****** the fuel injection timing to meet the slightly lower Tier IV NOx limit on small engines. I have the EPA chart right in front of me at work.

BTW, the 1025R engine rating dropped to 24.2 gross hp with a larger displacement engine from the 1026R of 25.2 hp. That's a 5% reduction, not insignificant. That's also how they cool the engine - inefficiency.

So if the 1025R has a DPF for 2013, where is it? In the muffler?

Also what is the torque curve, any less?

 

[DeereMann]

So if the 1025R has a DPF for 2013, where is it? In the muffler?

Also what is the torque curve, any less?

I didn't go to Yanmar website to dig out their torque curves - I suspect it is quite different with retarded injection timing. The 1025R engine uses an 80mm bore, the 1026R engine used a 76mm bore. The engine models reflect that in their model names. The stroke was the same.

Back when I purchased the 1026R in May, I recall the dealer showing me a DPF under a 1025R hood? I think?

At my company, they package DPF's with a DOC in a single cannister, but not with the muffler.

 

[calhoun9001]

JDTank,

Thank you for the very thorough explanation. It would be nice if we saw some type of benefit for the increase in $$$$

Im a master technician in the automotive world and work on a lot of the new diesel trucks. Im not a fan of any of the emmision stuff, but it has brought many benefits to the diesel engine. Direct injection, high pressure oil/fuel systems and electronic control modules have made diesel's much more fuel effecient and cleaner. The problem comes from the treating of the exhaust, Im starting to see tons of problems with DEF fluid systems ( this is where you add a fluid into its own tank and its pumped into the exhaust), there is a large amount of sensors and controls for these system to work properly. I personally like the direction JD went with the EGR system and no DEF fluid(this is what the 5085e has). You will find at the end of all the emmision BS all of them will end up with DEF systems of some sort. I just finished 2011 chevy duramaxx that had DEF problems with the DEF tank, 1100.00 later all lights are off the dash.

 

[RickB]

I just finished 2011 chevy duramaxx that had DEF problems with the DEF tank, 1100.00 later all lights are off the dash.

Covered under the EPA mandated emissions warranty?