Western versus Eastern technology competition

[PossumHound]

Great thread! Nice to hear some authentic experiences from folks who have "been there, done that" in other countries. Keep talking, I'm enjoying your conversation.

PH

 

[ArtMech]

I agree with the assesment of Russian Federation behavior. Russian companies controlled by the government are bribing Czechoslovakian politicians right now. It is clear to me that the ultimate goal is to take over.
Now they are moving to the USA. First as minority partners, then as majority partners and then it is just a matter of time before they start bribing US politicians.
Here is an example:
Lukoil News - The New York Times
and here is the result:
Lukoil Protest: Gas Stations Charge $8 A Gallon In New Jersey, Pennsylvania

Luke Oil is privately held and you can make a guess who is the largest shareholder. My guess is Putin and his cronies.

A case from my experience. Two young Russian speaking guys once (in '94s) came to the showroom I was working in, and asked for $800. I had never seen them before, and surprisingly asked them: "What for?" They said: "It's a duty, and you (me) should pay each month the same amount." I asked them again: "Where will I take that money from, I must show all my earned cash to the tax office." Then they said: "TAKE THAT MONEY FROM YOUR CUSTOMERS. CHARGE THEM. I immediately understood, what it could mean, and answered them: "The owner of a company lives in Denmark (he was really the Dane), so you can call him and reconcile this duty with him. If he will tell me to pay you those $800 monthly, no problem, I'll pay." They never called to the owner and never showed up again. And indeed nobody ever payed them those money.
This is my understanding of extra dollar request...

LUKoil tried to obtain local refinery (Mazeikiai) three times. The successors were "Williams Companies" in 1999, "Yukos" in 2003 and present Polish company "ORLEN Lietuva" from 2006.
ORLEN Lietuva - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Then, in 2006 Russians closed Druzhba Oil Pipeline to the refinery seems forever, because they got into a huff while losing a possibility to privatize a refinery. Thankfully the marine Butinge Oil Terminal had been built in time - 1999 - and it works currently.
Vice-leader of the Russian Duma, Konstantin Kosachev had said that "instability will continue to plague the refinery until the Lithuanians finally realize which partners one should choose" right a few hours before the major fire eruption in the refinery. They are saying such things O P E N L Y!!!
But all in all that was kind of win against the LUKoil.
Meanwhile LUKoil owns the network of gas stations in the Baltics too.

 

[Renze]

Well you said somewhere that your brother worked in East Germany collective farm.

yes but that was in the early 90s. He fired a guy that took a pillow with him when repairing the fences, and found him sleeping on the job every day for a whole week. The guy got drunk and visited him in the milking parlour and whacked him unconsious with a pipe, when he recovered at home in Holland he didnt go back...

 

[ArtMech]

The rocket with 2 Lithuanian first ever satellites has just been launched into space ~1 minute ago. I'm watching it on TV right now.
Must say - thank you America. :thumbsup:

http://www.delfi.lt/mokslas/mokslas...au-kosmose.d?id=63714920#dgslt-140098:5022727
http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2014/01/orbitals-antares-loft-cygnus-orb-1-mission/

 

[ArtMech]

Guys, Ukraine needs help. I don't know what kind, I'm gonna go to find out to the community this evening, which is organizing a protest action nearby Ukraine embassy in my country. Ukrainians keep fighting for not becoming the autocratic country. They've lost dead 5 protesters. No one single policeman has been killed. That goes on right now. There's a Live TV below. I have been watching or listening it nearly 40 hours. Government treats the protesters as terrorists. Protesters say they are the freedom fighters, struggling for their country's future. These days - pending of destiny of Ukraine, most of the observers have been state. Any ideas on the matter of help (non violent) could be very much appreciated.
espreso.tv Live 22.01.2014 - YouTube
Fiery clashes in Ukraine | Reuters.com
Sorry for emotional write up.

 

[paulharvey]

I'm going to try to careful with this; but... I try to not judge national opinions from a large crowd in a single city. Egypt was more or less over thrown by a vocal 1-2% of the population. Sure, there was another 20-30% of the population that agreed with them, but millions of people who are mad do not necessarily make up an automatic majority. Ukraine is very complicated, the large Russian minority in the east (majority in some areas) and the Ukrainian majority have different goals. Groups within the groups have goals. All along Russia has the very real interest in keeping a buffer state between them and there rivals (Nato/EU). Now, if Ukraine becomes a Russian puppet, that moves the buffer states to Poland and Romania... Poland is fairly strongly locked in with Nato and EU, so in the short term I don't see them in danger. The Ukraine was a difficult road to walk, it can never turn it's back completely on its Russian past (vast majority of its history) and it would also be a mistake to completely remove itself from dealings withe the EU. I would hazard to say Ukraine and Belarus fall within the Russian "sphere of influence" and that it would be bad for Western nations to get too involved. I'm not advocating Russian rulership, puppet ship or colony, but I view it as a bit of an "in the family" fight. You know what happens when you get involved in a in a a fight between brothers; nothing good.

All just some thoughts of mine; is a complicated situation with so many different sides and potential ramifications; far smarter people than me would be hard pressed to come up with a good clean solution.

Ukraine history is that of being the farmland serfs for the Russians, Turks, Poles, and in the far west Hungarian and Austrians. It is a valuable land of iron, coal, watet, and farm lands; and without a strong national identity, goverment, and military it is likely to not remain free in the Long term.

 

[paulharvey]

This part may be the more controversial part... but Russia does have an rightful interest in the Ukraine (8+ million russians) and Kazakhstan (4.3 million Russians and another 50th Ukrainians). Short of massive ethnic cleansing EI post WW2 Poland, Konigsberg, there will remain large national groups outside of there national boundaries. Very similar to the break up of Austro-Hungarian empire, which in many ways forced the path of WW2. I'm not endorsing forced relocation by any means, just the cold observations of a person with no dog in the fight.


BTW; what did happen post war in east Prussia; where Germans expelled, left in fear of Soviets, or did the disappear in the Soviet far east... I know there was a huge German population in the Baltic as well; pre war; just never really heard where they all went.

 

[ArtMech]

BTW; what did happen post war in east Prussia; where Germans expelled, left in fear of Soviets, or did the disappear in the Soviet far east... I know there was a huge German population in the Baltic as well; pre war; just never really heard where they all went.

Most of the Germans were evacuating themselves from East Prussia to Germany in winter "44-'45. They did it either way - by ships, by horse wagons or even on foot. You may find a write up about the largest number of drown people in the shipping history right after the vessel Wilhelm Gustloff with German refugees had been sunk by soviet submarine:
MV Wilhelm Gustloff - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Some of them, who didn't want to leave their farms, property were killed, women were raped by soviet soldiers. Some became prisoners of war. Soviets employed them into building of factories, bridges, power plants etc. as it was already stated by Redneck in training in this thread. Meanwhile there are no Germans in East Prussia, last ones were deported to Germany in 1947. It is now populated by Russian colonists, some Lithuanians, who were not allowed to return to the motherland from the Far East exile as well as Poles, who came from deportation from the whole SU. Soviets changed the names of the cities, towns and villages there into Russian ones. This territory is now most militarized land comparing to the rest of Russia.

Yeah, you're right on a subject of Ukraine. I have nothing to add. Just it's hard to put Ukraine in a row with North African countries because of very different culture and history. OTOH Ukrainians know their destiny to get stuck so closed with Russia. But how great soever their ties with Russia may be, they still want to get out of it. They already had more or less free elections, what Russia never has had. You know, after a single breath, you need more and more fresh air...

Tonight we had a very nice meeting with the officer of Ukrainian embassy. Our community presented our condolences to the nation for the deadly consequences. Put the candles near the facade of a building. Expressed hope for the peaceful future. He was thankful and said, he'll pass our support atmosphere to the Ambassador.

 

[Redneck in training]

I was working in town called Pallasovka 230km NE from Volgograd or about 100 Km East from Kamyshin and not too far from Kazakhstan. The population was of German origin moved there from Ukraine by Stalin before WW2. Those people were descendants of Germans who were invited by the Czar (I don't know when) to introduce crafts (such as blacksmithing, cabinet making etc) to the region. That is the story I was told.

The problem with Russia is that the country is run by crooks and criminals.

 

[ArtMech]

The problem with Russia is that the country is run by crooks and criminals.

Ladia, I agree with your statement. As what I could find out while following the reasons concerning the clashes in Kiev, I think in this case social issue is prevailing the national one. Ukrainian protesters are calling both - Russians of Ukraine and Russians of Russia - to join them. If the politicians make the decisions (create and accept laws), which considerably contradict the expectations of society, what the way could people choose to protect their rights? I don't know what would I do being in their place?