Help choosing 240v generator for MIG welder?

[Sodo]

It would be great to hear from someone with actual experience using "normal generators" for welding. I am a hobby/maintenance welder, don't need pro-level eqpt, just need it to work for the occasions when I need the 1/4" & thicker settings. If I were to guess - I would need it to work for 2 hours per year for 20 years (without consuming funds that I could use for other tools & stuff! )

I tried to run the MultiMatic 200 off a 5000W (21A) generator and it could only push the 1/4" thickness preset (on 230v).

 

[Sodo]

Ooops just called MillerWelds and asked a Tech. (tech suppt 1-866-931-9733)

For 230v welding the MultiMatic200 can operate at full power from any generator that is rated 7200W or higher (continuous).
For 115v welding at full power (1/4" preset) requires a generator rated at 4900W continuous per 115v outlet. Take note that 5,000w generators can generally only output only 2500w into each of two 115v outlets.

The tech said any generator of reasonable quality should work fine.

The MultiMatic 200 does not care much about the quality of the input power. It converts everything it gets to DC, then inverts it to the power configuration that it wants (to weld with). I did not ask about other welders (such as the 211).

 

[dragoneggs]

Ooops just called MillerWelds and asked a Tech. (tech suppt 1-866-931-9733)

The MultiMatic 200 does not care much about the quality of the input power. It converts everything it gets to DC, then inverts it to the power configuration that it wants (to weld with). I did not ask about other welders (such as the 211).

Hey, why not! :laughing: This is exactly what I want to know with my 211 and my Honda 3000w generator. I am assuming I need to piggy back it with another one but that might still leave me too short on 230v but okay on 115v.

 

[Sodo]

Hey, why not! :laughing: This is exactly what I want to know with my 211 and my Honda 3000w generator. I am assuming I need to piggy back it with another one but that might still leave me too short on 230v but okay on 115v.

Sorry I would have asked about the 211 but it was already getting complicated. I assume you have a EU3000i? I'm pretty sure that only the inverter generators can be "paired".

I suspect the 211 will work OK on 115 up to 1/4" if two 3000i are "paired". Note that for the 1/4" thickness preset it makes no difference if it's getting 115v supply or 230v.

On 230v (with paired 3000s) maybe you can use the 5/16" preset? :confused3: But probably not the 3/8" preset which requires 7200W.

 

[wade23454]

It would be great to hear from someone with actual experience using "normal generators" for welding. I am a hobby/maintenance welder, don't need pro-level eqpt, just need it to work for the occasions when I need the 1/4" & thicker settings. If I were to guess - I would need it to work for 2 hours per year for 20 years (without consuming funds that I could use for other tools & stuff! )

I tried to run the MultiMatic 200 off a 5000W (21A) generator and it could only push the 1/4" thickness preset (on 230v).

I've welded with several welders on generators, and have had good success with my harbor freight predator generator. I used my TA 181i in both stick and mig mode, and my observation is that you get a lot more bang for your buck from stick on a smaller generator since you run amperage based on welding rod diameter instead of material thickness (to an extent). I think my generator is 5500W continuous, but the mig was pushing it on 1/4" plate and would trip the welder's breaker after a few seconds of welding. I could run stick beads with 1/8" 7018 all day though.

I've also got a dual voltage Everlast PA200ST, and have run it off of a Yamaha inverter generator, 110V and 2800 watts with great results. I could run 3/32" rod all day with good results. My friend, who is a much better welder than I am, had great things to say about my little PA200 on his generator, and he has a Miller Dynasty 200 as his primary machine.

So, my recommendation, if you want to save money, and you don't use your generator to "generate" revenue, is get the bigger Harbor Freight Predator 7000W continuous, and you should be able to mig at the top end of your millermatic's capacity. Just make sure to do the proper generator maintenance, especially when it comes to keeping your fuel clean and fresh, and that generator should last you a long time. It gets good reviews and is probably built in the same factory as most of the other chicom generators that list for double the price.

 

[FTG-05]

You did what I did: Just called the factory and asked for tech support.

Except in my case I already had the generator (Northern Tools Northstar 5500 watt genset). I called the Lincoln factory, talked to a tech and he said that it would power my planned Lincoln SP-175 Plus just fine.

Thus far, since Feb. 1999, I've used the generator one time to power the welder and that was at a friends house welding on his 4runner rock crawler. The generator/welder combination did fine, as did the 80' cord I had left over from my pool install, having the generator run about 50' away so it wasn't so loud where we were working and the welder did just fine. Not sure how the weldor did, but that's another story and thread.....

Thanks,

 

[Sodo]

I've been welding at 120v with a pair of Honda EU2000i generators. Paired, they can output 4000w for ~ 30 minutes.

Heres an observation. In the springtime when it was cool out, the pair of Hondas could run the welder at the 1/4" thickness preset. When it was hot (last week) they struggled to weld at the 3/16" preset. Or maybe it's the MultiMatic200 sensitive to heat, or a combination of all machines. Or maybe I've overstressed the Hondas, I don't know.

But in any case I'm on the lookout for an 8,000W generator. Maybe the 8,000W will have remote start Keyfob and I can put it behind the barn. I will add a muffler to it, not going to listen to that racket all day.

 

[BukitCase]

Sodo, mine's from Costco, not name brand but has a Honda engine and electric (not remote) start, but only 7000 RUNNING watts, which is the ONLY spec that means squat - I've not tried it running any of my welders yet - no way it'd do the old transformer 250A stick machine, it would probably run the 252 for 1/4" or so. I know it'd run the little Everlast stick/tig machine that's been sitting in my garage for almost a year un-used (can't get the metal shiny enough for it)

It would also run my PM45, at least up to 1/2" plate - possibly 3/4.

No point so far, but a lot of small engines I've worked on over the years the exhaust port was actually pipe thread, usually 3/4 pipe. If your new genny has that, it'd sure make it easy to grab some black iron fittings and bell it up to a small car muffler - no increased back pressure and pretty quiet too... Steve

 

[Mark @ Everlast]

A Multirmatic DOES care what kind of power is put in it. A lot of generators put out a modified square wave. These have a tendency to burn up electronics real fast. They need a clean sine wave in order to dice it up into a DC wave. I am not sure what PFC level it has, but unless it has 99% then it can create issues too.

A good recommended generator on the basis of several customers owning one, and an AFFORDABLE and generally reliable option for a clean power unit is the powerhorse generator from Northern found here: Powerhorse Portable Generator with Electric Start — 9000 Surge Watts, 7250 Rated Watts | Portable Generators| Northern Tool + Equipment

 

[Sodo]

A Multirmatic DOES care what kind of power is put in it. A lot of generators put out a modified square wave. These have a tendency to burn up electronics real fast. They need a clean sine wave in order to dice it up into a DC wave. I am not sure what PFC level it has, but unless it has 99% then it can create issues too.

A good recommended generator on the basis of several customers owning one, and an AFFORDABLE and generally reliable option for a clean power unit is the powerhorse generator from Northern found here: Powerhorse Portable Generator with Electric Start 9000 Surge Watts, 7250 Rated Watts | Portable Generators| Northern Tool + Equipment

This is interesting. What type of generator has to modify a square wave? Do they get that square wave out of an engine-generator with a rotor / stator? Are these square wave types out there (in numbers) such that you have to pay attention (to avoid one)?

Bukit the Miller Tech said a generator with 7,000 running watts would work (for the MultiMatic 200 to weld at full power ----> 3/8" steel) but "the output they like to see is 7200W". So I bet your 252 would weld closer to 3/8" if you ever lug that stuff away from your 230 outlet (that I envy - even more than your polished steel supply :licking.

That 7250W Northern Tool unit looks pretty good $799 + $161 shipping = $960. Thanks very much for the Northern tool suggestion.

Any tips on remote start/shutdown generators? A lot of my welding time is sitting and thinking, want to shut the dang thing off (& restart) easily. Heres their (7500W running) wireless remote start for $151 more ( $949 +193 = $1142).
Category 5 Electric Start Generator — 9375 Watts, Wireless Remote Control, EPA and CARB-Compliant, Model# 41535 | Portable Generators| Northern Tool + Equipment

 

[Mark @ Everlast]

Sodo, many economy generators produce a modified square wave instead of a sine wave. It's designed to appear "sine-ish", but the tops of the wave are flattened and it "falls" through the zero point instead of the curved rise of a sine wave (forget what it is called now). Most of these generators are actually alternators, and they produce a dirty wave, and on 240V, the phase angle is not properly aligned. (that is about as technical as I get or it makes my head hurt). Inverter generators can produce a clean sine wave, but not all do. A clean sine wave is generally regard as 10% or less total harmonic distortion. Northern Tool claims 5% on that unit...which is better than the average household current in some areas of the country. Any way, dirty sine waves and modified square waves tears up electronic equipment. Just because a unit puts OUT a square wave or DC wave doesn't mean it wants a square wave input. Inverters and transformer rectifiers alike produce a square wave by chopping the tops/bottoms off of an AC sine wave to produce a somewhat squiggly DC wave.

If you would not plug your computer tower into it, you don't need to plug your inverter welder into it. A transformer may not care as much although the arc quality may not be as good...basically garbage in/garbage out...although I am sure it could eventually damage one as well if it were bad enough.

 

[Sodo]

Mark, my understanding of generators & electrical power is rudimentary but I understand waveforms and what you wrote. Thanks for the time.

For generator sales,--------> more Watts = more $$$
Consequently generator producers want the biggest wattage number they can get, which could be dirty output. (just an assumption)

Ooops just called MillerWelds and asked a Tech. (tech suppt 1-866-931-9733)
The tech said any generator of reasonable quality should work fine.
The MultiMatic 200 does not care much about the quality of the input power. It converts everything it gets to DC, then inverts it to the power configuration that it wants (to weld with).

But for forum completeness, note that I tried to type the statements (my quote above) exactly as the Miller tech told me but it might be worth confirming. I called again today, but no answer (Saturday).

 

[Mark @ Everlast]

It has to do with HOW the power is generated. You will pay double nearly for a clean power generator. Take a well known company like Generac. MOST of their units like the GP are not clean powered. Call them and they will tell you so...and probably will tell you (if prompted) not to use it on any electronics. Resistive loads like lights and some motors are fine. I would rely upon the generator supplier for the information, as they are the ones likely to get left holding the bag if something malfunctions on their genset.
Only their X series, which is more expensive, or the iX inverter based small gensets which start with 3 phase power and clean and convert it from there(which is the same basic generator Everlast sells IIRC, ) are designated as clean power.

 

[BukitCase]

Been quite a few years since my work required the use of a scope, but this discussion is getting me curious -

I was always under the impression that ANY genny that produced AC power by means of a constant speed rotary AC generator, produced a SINE wave - If I get time (Trying to make space for a half-ton milling machine that's due Monday, and a left hand with 3 fingers temporarily out of commission) I'll drag out my scope and see if it even still works, and if it does maybe I can get a few pix of the waveform on my genny.

btw, the "modified sine wave" is usually just a square wave with a "slowed down" rise and fall time, done in lower cost UPS's and such because it's cheaper to build than a true sine wave generator (if you're doing it with electronics instead of rotary motion, that is) -

Mark, the term for that is "trapezoidal wave",named for the fact that each half-cycle looks like a trapezoid.

The reason for a trapezoidal wave (in ELECTRONICALLY generated power), besides lower cost to manufacture, is that a square wave contains essentially ALL ODD HARMONICS of the frequency being generated, which is DEFINITELY not good for the power transformers in the majority of devices. Among other things, it generates more HEAT in the transformer.

The trapezoidal wave, due to its slower rise/fall time, greatly reduces those harmonics. This means that a trapezoidal wave is BETTER for a transformer, but not necessarily good ENOUGH. In order for a transformer to handle non-sine power it needs to be bigger/heavier/more expensive. Not generally the direction most manufacturers wanna go...

Harmonic distortion, in reference to a sine wave, means ANYTHING that puts ANY KIND of "bumps" in an otherwise perfectly drawn sine curve. The more of this there is in a power input, the more expensive the powered device needs to be. Again, not a good business choice.

Hope this didn't get too far afield, just trying to clarify a few points... Steve

 

[Sodo]

Steve that was more along the lines of my understanding. But this is farther than I've ever investigated generators in the past.

Category 5 Electric Start Generator — 9375 Watts, Wireless Remote Control, EPA and CARB-Compliant, Model# 41535 | Portable Generators| Northern Tool + Equipment $949 + $193 ship = $1142

This "Category5" brand is a "Champion". Any thoughts on the "Champion" brand?

If the generator was nearby, outside a metal building, can a wireless remote operate the generator thru sheet metal building walls? Or do I have to stick the FOB outside to remote activate? I suppose it would be similar to locking a car with the FOB (which I've never tried), what conditions does this work?

 

[dragoneggs]

Been quite a few years since my work required the use of a scope, but this discussion is getting me curious -

I was always under the impression that ANY genny that produced AC power by means of a constant speed rotary AC generator, produced a SINE wave - If I get time (Trying to make space for a half-ton milling machine that's due Monday, and a left hand with 3 fingers temporarily out of commission) I'll drag out my scope and see if it even still works, and if it does maybe I can get a few pix of the waveform on my genny.

btw, the "modified sine wave" is usually just a square wave with a "slowed down" rise and fall time, done in lower cost UPS's and such because it's cheaper to build than a true sine wave generator (if you're doing it with electronics instead of rotary motion, that is) -

Mark, the term for that is "trapezoidal wave",named for the fact that each half-cycle looks like a trapezoid.

The reason for a trapezoidal wave (in ELECTRONICALLY generated power), besides lower cost to manufacture, is that a square wave contains essentially ALL ODD HARMONICS of the frequency being generated, which is DEFINITELY not good for the power transformers in the majority of devices. Among other things, it generates more HEAT in the transformer.

The trapezoidal wave, due to its slower rise/fall time, greatly reduces those harmonics. This means that a trapezoidal wave is BETTER for a transformer, but not necessarily good ENOUGH. In order for a transformer to handle non-sine power it needs to be bigger/heavier/more expensive. Not generally the direction most manufacturers wanna go...

Harmonic distortion, in reference to a sine wave, means ANYTHING that puts ANY KIND of "bumps" in an otherwise perfectly drawn sine curve. The more of this there is in a power input, the more expensive the powered device needs to be. Again, not a good business choice.

Hope this didn't get too far afield, just trying to clarify a few points... Steve

yes good explanation... thanks and yes would be interesting to see what your scope says... what kind of generator do you have? I have a Honda EU3000iS and am told it has good sine wave output but I have not had the need to run sensitive electronics on it but have wondered if it would cause havoc.

 

[Sodo]

No worries on the Honda inverter, not even a remote concern, it could be cleaner than your house power.

 

[BukitCase]

My genny is a "Northstar Systems", powered by a Honda GX390 - electric start, except when it's sat awhile (maybe wimpy battery, it hasn't reached the top of my "G.A.S." list, 'cause the Honda starts first pull even after sitting for a year.) No inverter or remote, just the basics. It was $899 @ Costco about 3 years ago.

Sodo, remotes are next to impossible to predict - and as you know, metal walls don't help. You'll most likely have to try it in your situation. The only clue I got from your link was one customer saying,"starts from a long distance away." This kind of comment, to me, is worse than none at all - Is this customer a SLUG that can somehow talk and type (27 INCHES would be a long distance) - is he an IRON MAN competitor (couple MILES is fairly close) or something in between? Sheesh...

Having been in tech/scientific fields my entire life, I'm probably too picky wanting things actually QUANTIFIED ("The remote worked line of sight to 37 feet, but with a metal building wall in between, it quit responding at just over 9 feet", or something similar, might have been helpful...

Yeah, I know, picky picky picky - I'm just in a foul mood when I do some dumb-azz stunt that cost me a few weeks of restricted activity to heal :thumbdown: - OK, back to the shop to "putter" -

Oh, here's a random neuron fizzle - if your remote doesn't wanna make it thru the metal wall, AND you're OK with replacing a small section of wall with wood siding, AND that genny WILL start from far enough away thru a piece of plywood, that MIGHT be a possible "plan D"...

 

[BukitCase]

Oh, you may wanna download the manual (your link) and search it on the word "remote" - read it carefully before you place your order...

 

[Sodo]

Oh, here's a random neuron fizzle - if your remote doesn't wanna make it thru the metal wall, AND you're OK with replacing a small section of wall with wood siding, AND that genny WILL start from far enough away thru a piece of plywood, that MIGHT be a possible "plan D"...

If you're willing to tax more neurons. Bukit if you've been coming up short lately don't burn any up on my account! But wondering what size hole in the metal wall will it go thru if I hold the FOB right at the hole? Do you know the wavelength (of the frequency used by that type of remote)?