Help choosing 240v generator for MIG welder?

[CNC Dan]

Oh, here's a random neuron fizzle - if your remote doesn't wanna make it thru the metal wall, AND you're OK with replacing a small section of wall with wood siding, AND that genny WILL start from far enough away thru a piece of plywood, that MIGHT be a possible "plan D"...

Good idea.

I wonder if you can remove the remote control part on the generator, (and extend the wires) to where it might reach the remote signal. Or just remove and extend the key swich.

 

[BukitCase]

Read more on the manual, it says "within 80 feet" - bought a Heath/Zenith yard light from Homeless Despot a few years ago, claimed 100 foot range - got within 10 feet of it thru a single pane glass window before it worked. Took it back. YMMV is definitely at work here...

If the hole in metal wall is close to YOU(and the remote fob) then 4-6 inches square should negate the "Faraday cage" effect. If the genny is what's close to wall, probably a couple FEET square (centered on the receiver)

Dan's thought might be worth looking at, the manual describes the remote as being modular but doesn't go into much detail. It also doesn't give frequency, just that it's FCC listed.

It does, however, make me think that if you want the remote to work you should leave a trickle charger on the battery (powered from (too wimpy to run a welder) line supply - because in order for the remote to work at all, the battery has to be on (couple switches on the genny control panel) which would drain the battery if you kept in a "ready to start remotely" mode for more than maybe a couple days.

Oh, and my neurons are still OK, I just tend to them "fizzling" if I'm not sure the particular idea might not work :laughing:...Steve

 

[CNC Dan]

bukitcase makes a good point about leaving the remote recever on and draining the battery. I think it is intended to allow you to start/stop if you were on a job site and it would be a pain in the neck to run to the generator every time you want to use a saw.

 

[ENC]

What kind of waveform to the welder/generators produce? Something like the Hobart champion/Miller Bobcat or Lincoln Ranger. I know that they are higher on their wattage output but not sure how clean their power is.

I bought my well used bobcat (not sure which iteration) with long leads and a pickup bed trailer for about 1200. Gobs of power plus the ability to stick weld if it will run your existing mig machines.

 

[Mark @ Everlast]

Generally poor. Trailblazers, if newer produce cleaner power.

 

[kered]

As i see you have a tractor, maybe a alternator coupled to the PTO might be another affordable option(if they are in the same location obviously)

 

[newbury]

Not to hijack the thread TOO much but what type stick welder would maybe work well with a 12KW Winco PTO generator?

 

[Sodo]

Its my understanding that to stick weld @ 150A, you need 7 or 8kw. 12kw is about 50% more power.

 

[Arc weld]

12kw is lot's. For portability I'd get a 220 volt inverter. 200 amps would cover just about anything you'd need to do but you'd have enough power to run most machines up to about 300 amps.

 

[gtrippleb]

Steve that was more along the lines of my understanding. But this is farther than I've ever investigated generators in the past.

Category 5 Electric Start Generator 9375 Watts, Wireless Remote Control, EPA and CARB-Compliant, Model# 41535 | Portable Generators| Northern Tool + Equipment $949 + $193 ship = $1142

This "Category5" brand is a "Champion". Any thoughts on the "Champion" brand?

I haven't checked to see what the difference is, but this champion has the same rating, 7500 watts/9375 watts. Every now and then it will go on sale for $599. That's when I picked one up. I haven't used it for welding yet, but that's my plan. I have a Hobart 140 and I'm looking at getting PA200ST.

Champion Power Equipment Portable Gas Generator with Electric Start with 7,500 Running Watts, 9,375 Peak Watts and Wheel Kit

Price: $699
Amperage: 30 amps
Voltage: 240V
Wattage: 7,500W
Peak Wattage: 9,375W
Color: Yellow, Black
Start Type: Electric and Recoil

 

[David Devuono]

Like Bukitcase, I have not scoped a generator but ever notice that small engines are usually governed to 3600 RPM. Directly spinning a generator = 60 Cycles \ sec (60Hz). I have a 7500peak 6250 running on a 13HP engine. Using the so called 30 amp 120Volt plug powering my SP125 (use it at home on a 20 amp circuit though spec is for 25 amp) the generator will pop a breaker from time to time. Probably comes down to quality of generator so do you buy a cheap 10K or an expensive 7.5 K?

 

[dragoneggs]

Like Bukitcase, I have not scoped a generator but ever notice that small engines are usually governed to 3600 RPM. Directly spinning a generator = 60 Cycles \ sec (60Hz). I have a 7500peak 6250 running on a 13HP engine. Using the so called 30 amp 120Volt plug powering my SP125 (use it at home on a 20 amp circuit though spec is for 25 amp) the generator will pop a breaker from time to time. Probably comes down to quality of generator so do you buy a cheap 10K or an expensive 7.5 K?

Good comment Dave... I learned to buy quality if I wanted to use it for more than a few times.

 

[CNC Dan]

Make sure you get a genny that has less than 5% THD, if you want to run a PA200 (or any electronics) on it. Ask Mark about it.

 

[Gregster613]

Where do you find that info per a generator? I've been looking at various makes/models and cannot seem to find %THD listings anywhere? Should they be listed in the machine specs? What am I missing? Thanks for pointing me in the right direction if you can. Greg

 

[Mark @ Everlast]

If it does not advertise it, it is not going to be clean...usually. That is a major selling point, and any generator company that doesn't state that it is clean, IF it is clean is loosing sales to others that do.

So if you don't see it stated, don't worry with it. Usually inverter generators are clean power. Most if not all of them first generate 3 phase power before it is "inverted" into a clean sine wave.

Total harmonic distortion % sometimes can be found in the manual specs or pdf/brochure specs. Or you can call the customer service line and they will tell you if it is a company worth their salt.

 

[Gregster613]

Okay and thanks Mark. I wasn't sure if I was missing looking someplace special; I thought it should be listed within the specs, but it wasn't on the gens I was then looking at.
Also - I'm a bit of a dummy I guess - but, I don't really know what an "inverter" means/is. Could you sorta splain it some. I know that my Lincoln arc welder is an old transformer welder and I'm quite impressed by the PA models just don't understand the inverter reference. Greg

 

[Mark @ Everlast]

Inverter generator or welder? There are both. I even have an inverter microwave.

Layman version as best as I can make it. Inverters take AC power, and break/chop it down into tiny pieces of DC power and then reassemble it into the wave form with the use of diodes/rectifiers and transistors (usually Mosfet, IGBT, or some sort of thyristors). In essence a big filter that lets power only pass in one direction instead of changing polarity. Most AC/DC welders that are transformers use some sort of rectifier to achieve DC power. Think of an AC sine wave then chop the tops off the sine wave close to the top and discard the rest. Then the top of a long sine wave resembles a long, flat dotted line...which is essentially DC but with some gaps. Most inverters goes further. It chops the tops and bottoms (positive and negative parts) off and "inverts" them to fill in the gaps somewhat. The transistors then takes this and reassembles this wave, into a straight (er) wave form switching at 10's of thousands cycles per second. It is usually then run through some "conditioners" such as capacitors, small transformers or special coils that smooth the DC out even further and creating even more of a straight line. Or it can take this DC wave and turn it back into AC sine wave that can be adjusted to any desired frequency (within reason). All of this is electronically managed of course.
One point I'd mention is that whether an inverter or transformer, you really don't have a 100% true DC straight line "wave". It's chopped up into many tiny little pieces of DC power. It's sort of like having a long line that at regular resolution looks solid, but as soon as you start putting it under a magnifying glass, you can see the tiny little breaks between each part of the line.
The difference in a rectifier system on a transformer welder is the smoothness of the DC and the shape of the AC wave form. The rectifier of the transformer has only 60 cycles per second to operate on and it leaves larger gaps between each component of the sine wave. An inverter provides cycle times is several hundred times faster than that, which can create a smoother, less noticeable gaps in the DC output. A DC generator like an SA 200 works off even a more pure DC output because of it's design. Some of your cheaper modern engine drive welders (cheaper ones) use an alternator basically and then convert it to DC for DC output.

An inverter generator produces AC power first, in 3 phases. The more phases used, the better the quality of power will be put out because there are more sine waves to work with creating a more consistent line of DC that can be converted back into a stable AC output.

This probably got a few errors in it as I am not an electronics engineer...

 

[Gregster613]

Ooookaaay Mark, Like you - I am in no way an electrical engineer - but thank you much for laying it out in somewhat layman terms.

I did a search using "inverter - what is" - and got a shaky understanding of the idea after I'd already posted my question. So thanks for further clearing my cloudy head.

In reality, I have no clear understanding of the function except that they (inverter welders) come in a "small" package and can pack as much punch as an older model buzz-box for example. After I purchase an acceptable (less than 5% THD) generator to power my current AC 225 Lincoln stick welder, I will be in touch to inquire about a PA200 or PA300. I do like the idea of being able to use either 110 or 220 as a power source. Although my limited experience with welders has been with 220 powered buzz-boxes and stick welding thick metal.

I just wanted to glean some idea of what an inverter actually does and how it manages to do it. Thanks, Greg

 

[Sodo]

Greg, how many amps do you want to weld with? If you need the full range (225) you may need something like 11,000 watts.

It's my understanding that with about 7200Watts you can weld at about 150Amps. For my needs I'm planning on 8000W , maybe 10,000w generator. I'm not too worried about THD because the Miller tech said my MultiMatic 200 (an inverter welder) can tolerate almost any power source. He said any generator over 7200Watts will run the MM200 at the full power settings. Thats just my miller, I cant make any guesses about other inverters.

 

[MinnesotaDaveChalmers]

After I purchase an acceptable (less than 5% THD) generator to power my current AC 225 Lincoln stick welder, I will be in touch to inquire about a PA200 or PA300. I do like the idea of being able to use either 110 or 220 as a power source. Although my limited experience with welders has been with 220 powered buzz-boxes and stick welding thick metal.

I just wanted to glean some idea of what an inverter actually does and how it manages to do it. Thanks, Greg

Greg, generators to run your Lincoln buzz box have to be big - to run an inverter they can be much smaller.
I run my Maxstar 150s inverter off a 5000/6250 generator for example.

But here is what Lincoln says about running the AC 225:

"It does appear (if you do the math) that you should be able to use 1/8 in. and smaller diameter electrodes with an AC/DC 225/125 powered by a 5000 or 6000 watt generator. Unfortunately, the design of the transformer on the AC/DC 225/125 is not efficient enough to be powered by a small generator. If you try and weld with this combination you will most likely experience the electrode being hard-to-strike and also the electrode frequently sticking to the work.

If you are fortunate to establish an arc, the arc will tend to pop out frequently. Also, there will not be adequate heat input to the work, resulting in low weld quality (poor fusion), and poor bead appearance.

To successfully run your AC/DC 225/125 welder you would need a minimum of a 15,000 watt AC generator."