So much for a Nissan Leaf!

[houstonscott]

Your view/opinion is very clear. You seem really bothered by those who feel that electric cars do make sense. You certainly should not invest in an EV. Something other than fossil fuel vehicles will catch on as time passes...its really OK...just relax and do your own thing. Its not necessary to continue to be amazed that others choose different paths! :thumbsup: Electric car use by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia As of June 2014, there were over 500,000 plug-in electric passenger cars and utility vans in the world,[2][3] led by the United States with a stock of over 226,000 highway-capable plug-in electric cars.[4][5] Due to its population size, Norway is the country with the highest market penetration per capita in the world, also the country with the largest plug-in electric segment market share of new car sales, and in March 2014 Norway became the first country where over one in every 100 registered passenger cars is plug-in electric vehicle.[4][6][7] Estonia, which has the second largest EV market penetration per capita after Norway,[8] is the first country that completed the deployment of an EV charging network with nationwide coverage, with fast chargers available along highways at a minimum distance of between 40 to 60 km (25 to 37 mi).[9][10] Half a million draw a different conclusion...its ok...take a deep breath...and lots more would choose electric in the right situation. Some of us don't want to drive an F350 to carry us around. Loren

UK Electric Car Sales Down 50%, Despite Massive Government Grant : TreeHugger
I think if you really look at the trend, you'll find most EV's are being sold to government in an attempt to keep them from being dropped from production, due to poor sales, and without heavy government incentives on price they would already be out of production. HS

 

[3930dave]

The question in my mind as well is why not drive the F350 to work if it is only a few miles.. If it is a bunch a miles.. It is a real problem due to cost.. but If you use a gallon a day, it is not going to break the bank to drive the big honking truck, but if you use 10 gallons a day, it sure as heck is! Is it a stigma thing? Dont want to be seen with the big truck? Pixx off your sandal and sock wearing friends? What?:confused3:

What you are describing as a commute was the basis for a long running discussion on BITOG advocating an Ultra Severe Duty classification for Oil Change Interval. Unless you live in Phoenix, even a tiny gas 3 cylinder motor is going to have a lot of trouble ever seeing Operating Temperature on that commute.

I shudder to think what that commute would do to a big-block diesel !

If I could afford it, I'd love to have an EV for short-haul trips. My preference would be to charge it from an off-grid PV array - for my own reasons, and I'd actually prefer that nobody knew what I was doing. In the above scenario, I'd want to have the EV to prevent abusing my IC engines, esp. during our Winters.

I'm in no way evangelizing EV use.... just a comment on how I'd find one useful..... whether or not I'm driving my (old) one-ton Bblock diesel, our (old) 4 cylinder gas Civic, or my (relatively newer) water-cooled 500CC street bike (while wearing a safety flourescent vest), other than a LEO, I have zero interest in what other people think about them, or what impression I'm creating.....

Well.... other than SWBO, of course :drink:

Rgds, D.

 

[houstonscott]

What you are describing as a commute was the basis for a long running discussion on BITOG advocating an Ultra Severe Duty classification for Oil Change Interval. Unless you live in Phoenix, even a tiny gas 3 cylinder motor is going to have a lot of trouble ever seeing Operating Temperature on that commute. I shudder to think what that commute would do to a big-block diesel ! If I could afford it, I'd love to have an EV for short-haul trips. My preference would be to charge it from an off-grid PV array - for my own reasons, and I'd actually prefer that nobody knew what I was doing. In the above scenario, I'd want to have the EV to prevent abusing my IC engines, esp. during our Winters. I'm in no way evangelizing EV use.... just a comment on how I'd find one useful..... whether or not I'm driving my (old) one-ton Bblock diesel, our (old) 4 cylinder gas Civic, or my (relatively newer) water-cooled 500CC street bike (while wearing a safety flourescent vest), other than a LEO, I have zero interest in what other people think about them, or what impression I'm creating..... Well.... other than SWBO, of course :drink: Rgds, D.

Buy a golf cart, done. HS

 

[3930dave]

Buy a golf cart, done. HS

I don't golf, and have no interest in collecting tickets for using one on-road here.

Golf carts aren't much fun at -25C, and AFAIK, don't come with snow tires.

Rgds, D.

 

[woodlandfarms]

Just read this in a technology blog about 2020 cars.


There's a problem among wholly electric vehicles that engineers are still working to solve: battery capacity and charge times keep drivers within a limited driving range. Some solutions are in the works, but they remain several technological generations away. A widely-accessible, affordable solution isn't likely to be available in 2020, but there is a vast network of diesel fuel pumps available to distance drivers.

Link is powered by a plug-in electric and turbodiesel drivetrain, the former providing 300+ miles per charge and the latter facilitating high-efficiency driving on longer trips. Manufacturers like Tesla, who have opened their patents to use by other car companies, will work to increase battery capacity amongst the generation of vehicles available in 2020. Meanwhile, car companies like BMW, Mercedes, Audi and others have emphasized diesel as a high-efficiency fuel for freeway driving. The BMW 328d for example averages about 45 mpg on the highway, and we expect this to increase as engine technology and fuel quality increases toward 2020.

A combination plug-in electric and turbodiesel hybrid is a new concept, one recently announced by both Volvo and Subaru for forthcoming vehicles. It's sensible and sustainable, offering an electric option for local driving and an efficient diesel backup for longer trips. By 2020, advances in algae biodiesel and other advanced alternative fuels could make diesel driving the best option for legacy combustion engine vehicles. While most drives wouldn't require the diesel backup, Link drivers can rest easy knowing that the fuel they use in those instances is clean and efficient compared to 88 octane gasoline.

 

[Loren49]

UK Electric Car Sales Down 50%, Despite Massive Government Grant : TreeHugger
I think if you really look at the trend, you'll find most EV's are being sold to government in an attempt to keep them from being dropped from production, due to poor sales, and without heavy government incentives on price they would already be out of production. HS

Myths And Facts About Electric Cars | Research | Media Matters for America

MYTH: Consumers Won't Want Electric Cars Because Of Reduced Range

Writing for Forbes, Patrick J. Michaels of the Cato Institute claimed that "no one has figured out how to produce a comfortable electric car at an affordable (non-subsidized) price that has enough range to be practical for the most of us." [Forbes, 8/19/11]
Fox Business analyst Gary Kaltbaum said the public doesn't want to "buy an electric car where you've got to stop every 40 miles." [Fox Business, Cavuto, 12/19/11, via Nexis]
Author and motivational speaker Larry Winget said on Fox Business that "we still can't make an electric car that can go more than 40 miles without a recharge." [Fox Business, The Willis Report, 12/7/11, via Nexis]
FACT: EV Range Is More Than Enough For Most Drivers

AutoObserver: Studies Show 72% Of Drivers Travel Less Than 40 Miles A Day. Edmunds AutoObserver reported on October 21:

In a phone interview with AutoObserver last week, Perry said exhaustive data gleaned from the U.S. Department of Energy's EV Project and from the 7,500 Nissan Leaf EV (above) hatchbacks now on U.S. roads makes it abundantly clear that "there's no market need" for an EV that gets hundreds of miles between charges.

The data shows that the typical Leaf driver averages 37 miles a day in the car, and that the typical trip length (distance between power on and power off) is seven miles, Perry said. The findings are consistent with studies of conventional-vehicle driving patterns that found that 72 percent of American drivers travel less than 40 miles a day, and 95 percent drive less than 100 miles a day. [AutoObserver, 10/21/11]

Survey: Average Driver Travels 29 Miles Per Day. According to the Federal Highway Administration's most recent National Household Travel Survey, the average driver travels 29 miles per day and the average vehicle trip length is 9.7 miles. [Department of Transportation, 2009]

Tax Credits For Electric Vehicles Have Bipartisan History. As the following summary from the Congressional Research Service shows, Presidents George H.W. Bush and George W. Bush signed legislation providing tax incentives for the purchase of electric vehicles and other cars that reduce reliance on oil:

EPAct 1992 established tax incentives for the purchase of electric vehicles and "clean-fuel vehicles," including alternative fuel and hybrid vehicles. The Energy Policy Act of 2005 (Section 1341) significantly expanded and extended the vehicle purchase incentives, establishing tax credits for the purchase of fuel cell, hybrid, alternative fuel, and advanced diesel vehicles.

[...]

The Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008 established a tax credit for the purchase of plug-in vehicles, both pure electric vehicles and plug-in hybrids (i.e., gasoline/electric hybrid vehicles that can fuel on gasoline or be recharged from the electric grid.) For passenger vehicles, the credit is a maximum of $7,500, depending on the vehicle's battery capacity. After sales of vehicles eligible for the credit exceed a total of 250,000 for all manufacturers, the credit is phased out. [Congressional Research Service, 2/4/10]

Tax Credits Contribute To Development Of American Advanced Battery Industry And Jobs. A Duke University analysis of the U.S. value chain for lithium-ion vehicle batteries stated: "Largely as a result of financial support by federal and state governments, the U.S. domestic lithium-ion battery supply chain is developing very quickly." The report also said "U.S. production capacity has indeed grown very quickly, from just two relevant plants before the ARRA [American Recovery and Reinvestment Act] funding, to 30 planned sites aiming to achieve a projected 20% of world capacity by 2012, and 40% by 2015." [Duke University Center on Globalization, Governance & Competitiveness, 10/5/10]

Electric Vehicles: Myths vs. Reality | Electric Vehicle Guide

Electric car use by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As of July 2014, the United States has the largest fleet of plug-in electric vehicles in the world, with about 238,000 highway-capable plug-in electric cars sold since the market launch of the Tesla Roadster in 2008.[4][5] A total of 17,800 units were delivered during 2011,[385] more than 53,000 during 2012,[386][387] and about 96,600 during 2013, up 84% from the previous year.[388] The market share of plug-in electric passenger cars increased from 0.14% in 2011, through 0.37% in 2012, to 0.62% of total new car sales during 2013.[387][389] During the first half of 2014 plug-in electric car sales totaled 54,973 units, representing a 0.67% market share of new car sales.[390] The U.S. was the world's leader in plug-in electric car sales in 2012, with a 46% share of global sales, followed by Japan and Europe, accounting for 23% each. The American-built Chevrolet Volt was the world's top selling PEV in 2012, with more than 30,000 units sold including its sibling Ampera sold in Europe.[391]

http://www.theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/ICCT_EV-fiscal-incentives_20140506.pdf
EXECUTIVE SUMMARY
Governments around the world—motivated by long-term targets for climate change
mitigation and reduction of petroleum use—have set goals to increase electric vehicles’
future market share. In support of these goals, some governments have enacted direct
subsidies, fiscal incentives, and regulatory policy to help accelerate the movement of
electric vehicles into the marketplace.
In the meantime, the number of electric vehicle models is increasing as early market
adopters have begun to purchase these advanced-technology electric vehicles. The
global sales of electric vehicles have about doubled in each of the past two years,
from about 45,000 vehicles sold in 2011 to more than 200,000 in 2013.


Do you have any data to support your claim that governments buy most of electric vehicles or did you hear it somewhere?

Have you considered the true cost of gasoline/diesel when comparing costs?

It took quite a while for the Model T to be accepted also!

Loren

 

[houstonscott]

Myths And Facts About Electric Cars | Research | Media Matters for America MYTH: Consumers Won't Want Electric Cars Because Of Reduced Range Writing for Forbes, Patrick J. Michaels of the Cato Institute claimed that "no one has figured out how to produce a comfortable electric car at an affordable (non-subsidized) price that has enough range to be practical for the most of us." [Forbes, 8/19/11] Fox Business analyst Gary Kaltbaum said the public doesn't want to "buy an electric car where you've got to stop every 40 miles." [Fox Business, Cavuto, 12/19/11, via Nexis] Author and motivational speaker Larry Winget said on Fox Business that "we still can't make an electric car that can go more than 40 miles without a recharge." [Fox Business, The Willis Report, 12/7/11, via Nexis] FACT: EV Range Is More Than Enough For Most Drivers AutoObserver: Studies Show 72% Of Drivers Travel Less Than 40 Miles A Day. Edmunds AutoObserver reported on October 21: In a phone interview with AutoObserver last week, Perry said exhaustive data gleaned from the U.S. Department of Energy's EV Project and from the 7,500 Nissan Leaf EV (above) hatchbacks now on U.S. roads makes it abundantly clear that "there's no market need" for an EV that gets hundreds of miles between charges. The data shows that the typical Leaf driver averages 37 miles a day in the car, and that the typical trip length (distance between power on and power off) is seven miles, Perry said. The findings are consistent with studies of conventional-vehicle driving patterns that found that 72 percent of American drivers travel less than 40 miles a day, and 95 percent drive less than 100 miles a day. [AutoObserver, 10/21/11] Survey: Average Driver Travels 29 Miles Per Day. According to the Federal Highway Administration's most recent National Household Travel Survey, the average driver travels 29 miles per day and the average vehicle trip length is 9.7 miles. [Department of Transportation, 2009] Tax Credits For Electric Vehicles Have Bipartisan History. As the following summary from the Congressional Research Service shows, Presidents George H.W. Bush and George W. Bush signed legislation providing tax incentives for the purchase of electric vehicles and other cars that reduce reliance on oil: EPAct 1992 established tax incentives for the purchase of electric vehicles and "clean-fuel vehicles," including alternative fuel and hybrid vehicles. The Energy Policy Act of 2005 (Section 1341) significantly expanded and extended the vehicle purchase incentives, establishing tax credits for the purchase of fuel cell, hybrid, alternative fuel, and advanced diesel vehicles. [...] The Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008 established a tax credit for the purchase of plug-in vehicles, both pure electric vehicles and plug-in hybrids (i.e., gasoline/electric hybrid vehicles that can fuel on gasoline or be recharged from the electric grid.) For passenger vehicles, the credit is a maximum of $7,500, depending on the vehicle's battery capacity. After sales of vehicles eligible for the credit exceed a total of 250,000 for all manufacturers, the credit is phased out. [Congressional Research Service, 2/4/10] Tax Credits Contribute To Development Of American Advanced Battery Industry And Jobs. A Duke University analysis of the U.S. value chain for lithium-ion vehicle batteries stated: "Largely as a result of financial support by federal and state governments, the U.S. domestic lithium-ion battery supply chain is developing very quickly." The report also said "U.S. production capacity has indeed grown very quickly, from just two relevant plants before the ARRA [American Recovery and Reinvestment Act] funding, to 30 planned sites aiming to achieve a projected 20% of world capacity by 2012, and 40% by 2015." [Duke University Center on Globalization, Governance & Competitiveness, 10/5/10] Electric Vehicles: Myths vs. Reality | Electric Vehicle Guide Electric car use by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia As of July 2014, the United States has the largest fleet of plug-in electric vehicles in the world, with about 238,000 highway-capable plug-in electric cars sold since the market launch of the Tesla Roadster in 2008.[4][5] A total of 17,800 units were delivered during 2011,[385] more than 53,000 during 2012,[386][387] and about 96,600 during 2013, up 84% from the previous year.[388] The market share of plug-in electric passenger cars increased from 0.14% in 2011, through 0.37% in 2012, to 0.62% of total new car sales during 2013.[387][389] During the first half of 2014 plug-in electric car sales totaled 54,973 units, representing a 0.67% market share of new car sales.[390] The U.S. was the world's leader in plug-in electric car sales in 2012, with a 46% share of global sales, followed by Japan and Europe, accounting for 23% each. The American-built Chevrolet Volt was the world's top selling PEV in 2012, with more than 30,000 units sold including its sibling Ampera sold in Europe.[391] http://www.theicct.org/sites/default/files/publications/ICCT_EV-fiscal-incentives_20140506.pdf EXECUTIVE SUMMARY Governments around the world—motivated by long-term targets for climate change mitigation and reduction of petroleum use—have set goals to increase electric vehicles’ future market share. In support of these goals, some governments have enacted direct subsidies, fiscal incentives, and regulatory policy to help accelerate the movement of electric vehicles into the marketplace. In the meantime, the number of electric vehicle models is increasing as early market adopters have begun to purchase these advanced-technology electric vehicles. The global sales of electric vehicles have about doubled in each of the past two years, from about 45,000 vehicles sold in 2011 to more than 200,000 in 2013. Do you have any data to support your claim that governments buy most of electric vehicles or did you hear it somewhere? Have you considered the true cost of gasoline/diesel when comparing costs? It took quite a while for the Model T to be accepted also! Loren

You totally ignored my point, that without governments making the majority of sales and offering incentives, rather than letting markets determine sales, EV's quickly go away. They remain because big corrupt governments want to continue the myth of global warming in an effort to tax CO2 and get rich. To bad so many people remain, as what's known as useful idiots. HS

 

[bruceha2000]

That's about the situation I am in. I have a 10 MPG F250 but my commute is only 6 miles round trip. Even with the bad gas mileage I don't spend much per month to get back and forth to work. Getting a commuter would never work out for me.

On the weekends the truck gets used for pulling the camper, boat, tractor, etc....Wouldn't mind one of the new F150's with the Ecoboost. I could save a little when we take the current truck on longer trips.

3 miles one way? You don't need a Leaf, you need a bicycle! Depending on traffic, your commute time might be the same or less. Ever notice the bicyclists passing all the cars lined up at red lights and stop signs? OK, maybe not in the winter if you live where it is cold.

It appears nothing has changed since I last read this thread. There are those that say no EV makes sense for anyone now and they will never make sense. They are wrong. Everyone has a different situation.

- If you only have 1 vehicle and go farther than the range of an EV more than a few times a year (when you could rent), it doesn't make sense.
- If you only have 1 vehicle and never go beyond the EV range but you need to pull a trailer or boat even within EV range distances, an EV doesn't make sense.
- If you have 2 vehicles and 2 daily drivers who both need to drive farther than the range of an EV more than a few times a year AND on the same days, it doesn't make sense.

I don't think anyone wants to have a vehicle that is running on the edge of range. It is no different for an ICE vehicle. Ever been through the desert where you see a sign that says "last gas for 200 miles"? If you are driving a vehicle with a 15 gallon tank, AVERAGES 25 MPG highway and you've gone 150 miles since the last fill up, are you going to pass this station trusting that your "375 mile range" is real for THIS trip and you will have an extra 25 miles "in the tank" when you get to the next station?

My wife has a 2006 Prius (105K miles), mine is a 2009 (80K miles). We both generally get over 55 MPG per tank in the summer (60 is not all that uncommon), over 45 in the winter (less is VERY uncommon). There is a notable "lip" at 50F where the mileage goes up, almost like you've crested a hill.

She has a long daily commute with no possibility of charging at work. Her minimum distance is 24 miles each way but she works at 5 different locations, sometimes 2 in a given day and her "two location" commute is over 100 miles. An EV would not make sense for her.

I am retired and don't drive every day. The places I frequent are no more than 10 miles away. The longer "big city" trips are ~55 miles round trip and that is maybe once a week. I could use an EV and will probably get one when one of the current vehicles needs to be replaced. That isn't likely for some time though. My 2004 had over 130K miles on it when I was rear ended while doing at least 20 MPH on an onramp by a girl who was not a bad driver (I know because she told me so many times) and totalled. No hint of a problem and nothing repaired/replaced other than the same parts that would need same on an ICE vehicle. IF the 2013 Leaf (with the 6.6 KW charger) had been available in Sept 2012 when my car was totalled, I probably would have purchased one. But the pre 2013s had only a 3.3 KW charger. That was 16 hours charge time from empty on a 110V line. No good. The current model will charge from empty to 80% (recommended for longer battery life) in less than 4 hours on a 220V line. I have a 50 Amp line running to my barn, no problem putting a 220V charger on it since there are no "big draw" users that have to be run when an EV would be charging.

I have noticed that my new Craftsman garden tractor has about the same gallons/hr usage while mowing as my Prius does overall - one. So that makes my tractor and car equivalent, right?? Except the tractor can only go 7 MPH and the Prius doesn't seem to shorten the grass when I drive over it.

 

[Loren49]

You totally ignored my point, that without governments making the majority of sales and offering incentives, rather than letting markets determine sales, EV's quickly go away. They remain because big corrupt governments want to continue the myth of global warming in an effort to tax CO2 and get rich. To bad so many people remain, as what's known as useful idiots. HS

Any factual support for your claim that governments buy most EVs? ...or that gasoline/diesel pump costs are way less than true costs! Your denial is clear and you provide no factual support other than "trust me" which I don't.

The True Cost of Gasoline is Closer to $15 a Gallon (Video) : TreeHugger
"I recently wrote an in-depth examination of the true cost of fossil fuels, where I looked at the various significant costs that refining and burning oil, coal, and natural gas impose on the public. Suffice to say that when you factor in all of the government subsidies and 'externalities' (increased health costs from respiratory sickness, environmental degradation, etc; the stuff that we all have to pay for maybe not from our wallets but in our tax returns), the true price of fossil fuels is much, much higher than any individual or company pays. Gasoline is no exception."

The Real Cost of Oil: How much are we paying for a gallon of gas?
"But the real price of gas is much higher and camouflaged by myriad direct and indirect costs associated with maintaining our oil economy. How much are you actually paying for gas? Take a closer look at the hidden bills footed by your taxes:


The cost of securing our access to Middle East oil..is estimated at $50 billion per year.. The federal government subsidizes the oil industry with numerous tax breaks and government protection programs worth billions of dollars annually. These benefits are designed to ensure that domestic oil companies can compete with international producers and that gasoline remains cheap for American consumers."


From a 2002 report...
True Cost of Gasoline artificial subsidies - The Progress Report
Far From Free-Market Prices for Gasoline
True Cost of U.S. Gasoline is $15.14 per Gallon, Report Says

by Tom Doggett & edited by The Progress Report staff
So you think you’re getting a good deal on a tank of gasoline these days? You wouldn’t think so if all the oil industry tax subsidies received from the federal and state governments and other costs that went into producing that gallon of gasoline were included in the pump price.

Such external costs push the true price of gasoline as high as $15.14 a gallon, according to a new report released by the International Centre for Technology Assessment.

“In reality, the external costs of using our cars are much higher than we may realize,” the Washington-based research group said in its report."

I did not ignore your claim, I asked for a some facts not an anti science sidestep. What were you claiming about subsidies? At $15/gallon the EVs look different.

Loren

 

[Loren49]

Better junk your Farmall A Treehugger, it's a polluter.

Really deep and constructive plus attempted name calling...mature! Thanks for implying that that I value forests. You got something right.

Why make your post??

Loren