Everlast plasma?

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   / Everlast plasma? #131  
At the risk of turning this into a policitical shout fest. I want to voice my thoughts on all this overseas manufacturing.

It has been said by many, (Fred, I aint just pointing at your statements) that American workers priced themselfs out of a job. Also it has been said that corporate want a bigger piece of the pie. I dont really agree with those types of statements. First and foremost, one must look at who is really getting that big piece of the Pie. The US has the largest corporate tax rate of any other country. 40% of all profits goes to the Government. Now thats a pretty big piece of the pie. Add to that all the EPA restriction on building new Manufactureing facilities. it isnt any wonder that companies choose to go overseas to other countries with less restrictions and lower tax rates. I know if I was starting a new business, I would try to figure out a way to reduce my cost. If you care to do the research, you will also find that the countries with the lowest corporate taxe rates also have some of the fastest growing economies with more manufacturing companies locating there. A little more research will reveal that wages are also going up in those countries. China would be one good example, even with billions of people available.

People also think cheap labor is why companies look overseas. While it is true that people in China work for pennies on the hour as compared to American workers. Wages arenot everything. Once that product is produced, it still has to make it to America before it can be sold. Freight is as big a cost as labor on many products. Order something on line and have it shipped to your house and then add the cost of freight to the final cost of your purchase. On little items, the freight can sometimes be as much as the cost of the product. If that product was built overseas, you have the hidden cost of freight , just getting it to the US, already hidden in the purchase price of the product. Companies dont really save much on labor when they choose to build overseas. What they do save on is taxes and regulations.

Corporations are not people. Corporations are owned by people, usually in the form as a stock holder. Corporations are not greedy, Stockholders are very greedy. Every business needs to make a profit. The more profit they make, the more taxes they pay, to maintain a profit margin, they must raise prices. With high prices, you have to have high wages, or there will be nobody to buy your product. People choose where and how they spend their money and everybody has their own reasons for doing so. As long as people choose to spend their money on Foreign made products, those foreign companies will flurish and American companies will continue to look for Foreign sources for the raw materials to build their products, its the only way they can keep prices low enough that the American consumer can buy them.

Sveral years ago, I was working in Doraville Ga. Generl Motors used to have a large Assembly plant there. at the time, GM had laid off a large part of their workforce because they couldnt compete with some of the foreign car companies. I saw a guy driving around town in his large Chevy Pickup truck. In the back of the truck he had a large sign that read, "If your out of work, and you drive a Foreign made car, You have nobody to blame but yourself". Those words are just as true today as they where back then. The Doraville GM assembly plant has shut down, nothing there but an empty building. The Ford Assembly plant in South Atlanta has met the same faith. Good paying jobs lost forever. good paying support jobs also lost. I think of the number of train cars that where delivered to those two plants every day. Frei9ght dont roll into empty plants. No freight, no need for train crews, no need for track workers. You also had the countless number of trucks that serviced those same facilities, how many truck drivers lost their jobs. They certainly didnt get any pay raises.

Your choices do make a difference. You keep buying overseas, and sooner or later you will have to move overseas to get a job.


A lot of good posts here...

Let's not forget OSHA... The government pencil pushers that have virtually tied the hands of the American worker firmly behind his back! Safety is one thing ... Stupidity is something else. And .. I've seen enough of it firsthand to turn my stomach!
 
   / Everlast plasma? #132  
Sveral years ago, I was working in Doraville Ga. Generl Motors used to have a large Assembly plant there. at the time, GM had laid off a large part of their workforce because they couldnt compete with some of the foreign car companies. I saw a guy driving around town in his large Chevy Pickup truck. In the back of the truck he had a large sign that read, "If your out of work, and you drive a Foreign made car, You have nobody to blame but yourself". Those words are just as true today as they where back then. The Doraville GM assembly plant has shut down, nothing there but an empty building. The Ford Assembly plant in South Atlanta has met the same faith. Good paying jobs lost forever. good paying support jobs also lost. I think of the number of train cars that where delivered to those two plants every day. Frei9ght dont roll into empty plants. No freight, no need for train crews, no need for track workers. You also had the countless number of trucks that serviced those same facilities, how many truck drivers lost their jobs. They certainly didnt get any pay raises.
On the other hand, Dodge, Chevy and Ford each only have ONE 2014 MY vehicle that is assembled in the US or Canada with at least 75% US or Canadian parts. Toyota has four and Honda has three.

The Cars.com American-Made Index - Cars.com
Rank Make/Model U.S. Assembly Location
1. Ford F-150 Dearborn, Mich., Claycomo, Mo.
2. Toyota Camry Georgetown, Ky.; Lafayette, Ind.
3. Honda Odyssey Lincoln, Ala.
4. Toyota Sienna Princeton, Ind.
5. Toyota Tundra San Antonio, Texas
6. Toyota Avalon Georgetown, Ky.
7. Chevrolet Corvette Stingray Bowling Green, Ky.
8. Honda Ridgeline Lincoln, Ala.
9. Honda Crosstour East Liberty, Ohio
10. Dodge SRT Viper Detroit

Why did domestic companies lose market share to foreign companies? A lot of it (IMO) had to do with reliability. My inlaws had a Sebring and a Grand Caravan, they had one problem after another and they were frequently in the shop for this or that. Never anything huge, but $300-$1000 repair bills that you shouldn't see on a sub 5 year old vehicle.
They replaced them with a Sonata and a Santa Fe both of which have been very reliable and far more comfortable than the vehicles that they replaced.
I had a '93 Volvo 940 wagon which my brother now drives. It has over 200k miles on it, it lived most of its life in Upstate NY and it has almost no rust on it.
Compare that to my wife's 2002 Caravan which only had ~130k miles when we sold it last month and the rocker panels were pretty much gone, or our '97 Dodge 1500 which has lost most of its fenderwells and the bottom of the doors.
Yes, there is a reason domestic brands lost market share and a lot of it was their own fault.

Aaron Z
 
   / Everlast plasma? #133  
I Agree that Government takes a lot of the Blame with corporations moving overseas , as I noted with the environmental side . A few complain , A Politician takes up the band wagon to get elected or re-elected and " Boom " we now have new laws that some prove so costly to adhere to that companies either close their doors for good or have no choice to move else were . OHSA , Insurance requirements , Tax Breaks , the list goes on , all really contribute to the plight of the U.S. economy . I am sure if Jim was able to , He could enlighten everyone here on What it costs to make products here that Are Not related to the actual product , ( insurance compliance , environmental compliance , Tax compliance , etc............. ) . That though is not Everlast's Fault , That is Our Fault for allowing it to happen .

My industry is no different . Trucking has change so much in the last 20 years . Not only driver and company regulations , but environmental as well . Trucking will always be here , rail only goes to certain places , but that does not mean it cannot be so regulated that it falls to a critical stage .

As I stated , If I was looking for a new Plasma , my first call would be to Everlast , as I have seen to many people here that are satisfied with their choice of welder or plasma . For my needs , it would fit and also fits my budget for such expense . My Longevity Migweld 200S is a prime example . One Third ( 1/3) the cost of a Miller 212 such as my brothers , but same duty cycle . Does not use the big rolls like the 212 but a lot more portable .

Fred H.
 
   / Everlast plasma? #134  
I can touch on the reliability of some vehicles. Lots of stuff in the News lately about GM, no denieing that. What you might not know is that at one time toyota was doing upgrades to more cars per year than they where actually building each year. Didnt hear much in the news about it though, and for good reason. The big three have a tendencey to wait for some big lawsuit before initiating a recall to fix known problems with their vehicles. Instead of doing recalls, Toyota did voluntary upgrades. upgrades made the consumer feel good about the car company they where dealing with. Recalls made consumers mad. Which do you think made the news, the satisfied customer, or the customer that was upset about having their car fixed. It might interest some to know that some of the Toyota upgrades where for the same exact recall problems of the big three. No getting around it, part manufacturers build for all car companies and if their parts fail for one company, it often fails for the rest of the industry. While during that one particular time period, Toyota was upgradeing/recalling more autos than they where building during the same time period, they also had one of the highest customer satisfaction rates. It wasnt that their cars where anybetter than anyone else, its just that thru effective handling of their products and taking care of their customers, they just didnt have the loud complaints of the other manufacturers. Squeaky wheel gets the most attention.

As for American companies not being able to compete, it isnt an exactly fair playing ground. Way back when, I think the Jiommy Carter years, Foreign car companies where given huge tax breaks to relocate their companies to US borders. Some of these same tax breaks allowed for tax and duty free import zones which allowed them to import foreign parts without having to pay any taxes of any kind. This same tax zone was off limits to American car companies which resulted in American made cars being much more expensive to build. The foreign car companies where certainly handed a big market advantage and begin flooding America with cheap imports. Mind you Economy cars where new to Americans who where used to having their big luxury, gas guzzeling lead sleds. The Japanese where miles ahead on fuel economy simply because Japan doesnt have any oil wells and has to import all of their fuel. with the fuel shortages of the 70's, economy cars where the auto market, and it took Detroit years to catch on.
 
   / Everlast plasma? #136  
Interesting thread. Funny how Harley Davidson got the Gov't. to put higher import tax on the larger displacement bikes coming from other countries. Then they tried and I think were successful in getting a copyright for the sound of their V-twin engines. A lot of people thought it was a farce. People buy a Harley because they want a Harley. Harley use Mikuni carbs. and other parts from Japan on some of their bikes.:laughing: The auto market seems to have done the opposite.
 
   / Everlast plasma? #137  
I get random results with my cars...I had good luck with a Ford F250 diesel until it got to 100k Miles.....it had the ill fated 6.0 (International built) engine....and Ford left all of us owners holding the bag on repairs......which were averaging over $1000 per month (Injectors, EGR valves, Turbo cleaning, Oil pump) and it was designed so that major engine repairs require pulling the cab off the truck. Happy now with the RAM 2500 with Cummins.....never again in a Ford truck.

I also have a 2000 Volvo XC70 wagon. 250k miles, not a spot of rust (in NH....with extreme salt usage on roads)....never a major issue. Extremely reliable car. The worst car we ever had was a Jetta.....electrical problems, engine lights, fuel injection issues, Junk in my opinion. Wife drives a 2013 Caddy SRX (crossover). So far it is perfect except for the knobless dash. Touchscreen for every control.....I have to pull over on the side of the road to change radio stations. The dealer sold us the car with a "bumper to bumper" 100k warranty....so we won't worry about that one for a while.


The whole point is.....it is not where a product is manufactured or where the majority of its internal components come from. Rather, it is how well the product is engineered, what quality control was used to ensure proper manufacturing, what types of reliability and HALT (highly accelerated life testing) programs and equipment were used during the design/engineering stages. All of this adds cost. Yes, it is costly to pay good wages and benefits, as well as to comply with American safety and environmental laws. Good products can and do come out of many U.S. companies, and this trend is growing very rapidly.....and I predict that US industry will surprise many over the next 5 to 10 years with what was learned from the most recent downturn in the economy. As I said before....my company loves it when our competitors farm work offshore. We see definite market share gains. We also know that with highly technical product (like plasma cutters) that low price is one buying stipulation for a limited segment of the market, performance, product support (long term), reliability, product safety......are purchase stipulations that control the largest part of the market.

If all cars had the same performance, the same reliability, the same level of factory support, but different prices.....would Mercedes and BMW stay in business with their higher prices? I think not. Keep in mind that Plasma cutters, like cars.....are not created equal. You do "get what you pay for".

Jim Colt Hypertherm
 
   / Everlast plasma? #138  
I get random results with my cars...I had good luck with a Ford F250 diesel until it got to 100k Miles.....it had the ill fated 6.0 (International built) engine....and Ford left all of us owners holding the bag on repairs......which were averaging over $1000 per month (Injectors, EGR valves, Turbo cleaning, Oil pump) and it was designed so that major engine repairs require pulling the cab off the truck. Happy now with the RAM 2500 with Cummins.....never again in a Ford truck.

I also have a 2000 Volvo XC70 wagon. 250k miles, not a spot of rust (in NH....with extreme salt usage on roads)....never a major issue. Extremely reliable car. The worst car we ever had was a Jetta.....electrical problems, engine lights, fuel injection issues, Junk in my opinion. Wife drives a 2013 Caddy SRX (crossover). So far it is perfect except for the knobless dash. Touchscreen for every control.....I have to pull over on the side of the road to change radio stations. The dealer sold us the car with a "bumper to bumper" 100k warranty....so we won't worry about that one for a while.


The whole point is.....it is not where a product is manufactured or where the majority of its internal components come from. Rather, it is how well the product is engineered, what quality control was used to ensure proper manufacturing, what types of reliability and HALT (highly accelerated life testing) programs and equipment were used during the design/engineering stages. All of this adds cost. Yes, it is costly to pay good wages and benefits, as well as to comply with American safety and environmental laws. Good products can and do come out of many U.S. companies, and this trend is growing very rapidly.....and I predict that US industry will surprise many over the next 5 to 10 years with what was learned from the most recent downturn in the economy. As I said before....my company loves it when our competitors farm work offshore. We see definite market share gains. We also know that with highly technical product (like plasma cutters) that low price is one buying stipulation for a limited segment of the market, performance, product support (long term), reliability, product safety......are purchase stipulations that control the largest part of the market.

If all cars had the same performance, the same reliability, the same level of factory support, but different prices.....would Mercedes and BMW stay in business with their higher prices? I think not. Keep in mind that Plasma cutters, like cars.....are not created equal. You do "get what you pay for".

Jim Colt Hypertherm
 
   / Everlast plasma? #139  
Funny that you mention that Jim, with Mercedes and BMW being consistently rated the most expensive to maintain per mile driven (and rated poor value as well) with well higher than average repair rates on many of their models....Do you really get what you pay for? No, I don't think so...most of it leads to status symbols, abating insecurities, protecting ego, etc, and that is a factor you did not factor.
 
   / Everlast plasma? #140  
The last BMW we had went about 250k before we sold it...no major issues, never owned a Mercedes. The Jetta cost us far more than the Bimmer, same for my Ford F250. There is always a bit of randomness to these things.....and if you count the cost of tires (bigger, higher speed rating, still wear out like all tires) and brakes (agin higher performing) then the total cost may be higher with higher performance cars...but the satisfaction and number of miles per dollar are often higher.

Jim


Funny that you mention that Jim, with BMW being the most expensive (ordinary car) to maintain, with Mercedes not falling far behind it with well higher than average repair rates on many of their models....Do you really? No, I don't think so...most of it leads to status and ego on things, and that is a factor you did not factor.
 
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