Lucky to be ALIVE!!!

[Coyote machine]

Here's the thing about the term I use to describe what happened with the starter circuit on Gary's tractor. When I say 'short to ground' my meaning is this: a short path to a ground (negative potential) thus completing a circuit. This is different than a 'dead short' which is accomplished by the example of the wrench between, for instance, the positive and negative post of a battery. If I'm not mistaken, Gary didn't hold the wrench for any length of time against the terminals on the starter solenoid. On the previous page Gary describes picking up the wrench again and tapping on the solenoid to get it to stop: (making noise, being energized?). He did this after the initial, what I described as his short to ground; meaning his wrench allowed the defective and intermittent starter solenoid to complete a short path to ground, through the starter, NOT it's casing, and thus the starter was energized long enough to engage the flywheel. With the tractor in gear the flywheel could not overcome the need to move forward while trying to start the engine. The starting of the engine was hampered by both the trans being in gear AND the tractor encountering the mostly immovable fence, thus it never started. Gary managed to put the trans in reverse, then finally into neutral, and we know the rest.

FWIW, this electrical nightmare Gary encountered is not all that different than what can occur in household wiring circuits. Certain conditions cause shorts at an outlet, for instance. If the culprit is a faulty lamp or other object the house's wiring is saved by the appropriate sized breaker tripping. If the shortest path to ground is a wet human standing in a puddle of water in their bathroom they will likely die before the breaker trips to save them and the house wiring. Unless there is a GFCI in the circuit, which has it's own breaker in the outlet, and the faulty path to ground, (in this case wet human) is sensed by the GFCI's internal highly sensitive circuit which will trip in milliseconds to save the wet human from fatal shock.
Now code requires one further step toward circuit safety; arc fault breakers, which keep a protected circuit from allow any arc that could cause a fire or similar damage from doing so, similar to how the GFCI works. In this case it's similar to the wrench across both hots of the starter solenoid and will sense that fault and open the circuit to prevent it from continuing.
The difference is neither the starter nor the solenoid have any safety in place, no breakers or fuses to open the circuit and stop the damage created by the fault; in this case the wrench literally being 'thrown' into the works.
The rubber boot some starter solenoids have to prevent this type of fault is mediocre at best since it is easily defeated by an operator.

What was described as best practice for testing a faulty starter/solenoid is what is sold as a remote starter switch; a two wire switch with clips for the small spade terminal of the solenoid and one clip for positive feed to the second wire. Pressing the button energizes the circuit and makes the starter engage, if no faults are present, and most importantly keeps the operator clear of the machine and any potential moving parts.

From what I seem to remember of Gary's various descriptions of what took place over numerous posts it seems that the solenoid was defective and working on occasion but intermittently at best. If it were to be removed from the starter and broken down to it's internal components I believe there would be evidence of what was causing the solenoid to act up as it had been and most recently did with Gary's unfortunate incident.

 

[Garycw]

It's a 2004 model. The only way to shut engine off is with the fuel cut off knob/ cable. It would also start with ignition off and key out of you jumped the solenoid to starter.

 

[aczlan]

My guess would be that the solenoid was shorted by the wrench (NOT shorted to ground, just the terminals on the solenoid were shorted across) and that then the solenoid stuck in the "engaged" position.
After he got it into neutral, the bendix (the sliding gear on the starter) freed up and slid back (so the engine stopped cranking) but the solenoid was stuck until he rapped on the started with the wrench (that is what caused the whirring/whining sound)

Aaron Z

 

[Garycw]

That sounds logical to me CM. What ever the wrench shorted was like the remote start switch. Even though it was a split second momentary connection.
NOW, I'll add one more pirce to the puzzle. While I was adjusting the clutch pedal to make the two stage clutch work properly, there is a plunger switch at bottom. With clutch fully depressed pedal arm would depress this switch. When adjusting clutch this switch became loose and I had to hold inplace while I tightened adjusting nut. After that it was blowing fuses. Twice, but then was ok after replacing correct fuse amp. ?? I'm not sure if this switch on clutch arm had anything to do with soleniod staying latched in or not?
I didn't mention this before, but it's just another factor of this mystery latching soleniod and creeping tractor with a like mind of it's own.

 

[Coyote machine]

My guess would be that the solenoid was shorted by the wrench (NOT shorted to ground, just the terminals on the solenoid were shorted across) and that then the solenoid stuck in the "engaged" position.
After he got it into neutral, the bendix (the sliding gear on the starter) freed up and slid back (so the engine stopped cranking) but the solenoid was stuck until he rapped on the started with the wrench (that is what caused the whirring/whining sound)

Aaron Z

The wrench becomes the ground to complete the circuit of the solenoid activating the starter Bendix. Without a completed circuit the solenoid would NOT engage the starter. One could say it's a difference in terminology to the extent that a shorted circuit is still a circuit, and a ground must exist for hot 12Volt potential to make the circuit complete, otherwise all one has infinite potential at the hots of the solenoid and they will never complete a circuit, (find a ground) on it's own willpower.
Result of the wrench making a complete circuit is the solenoid activates the starter, the Bendix engages the flywheel, the tractor tries to start but can't, the gate and Gary's attempt to take the shifter into neutral, but instead moving it to reverse, and eventually to neutral create the perfect nightmare he experienced.

I agree, the solenoid became stuck on, ie, running until Gary smacked it with the wrench at which point the 'shorted' solenoid stopped running/making noise. I maintain the faulty solenoid should be examined by a repair shop to determine the source of the problem. Didn't Gary mention there were issues with the solenoid prior to the accident?

 

[aczlan]

The wrench becomes the ground to complete the circuit of the solenoid activating the starter Bendix. Without a completed circuit the solenoid would NOT engage the starter. One could say it's a difference in terminology to the extent that a shorted circuit is still a circuit, and a ground must exist for hot 12Volt potential to make the circuit complete, otherwise all one has infinite potential at the hots of the solenoid and they will never complete a circuit, (find a ground) on it's own willpower.

Can you find or make a wiring diagram to show what you mean because what I get out of your post goes against every negative ground starter with a built in solenoid that I have seen.
Generally speaking, a starter will have 3 terminals:
1. Battery in
2. Switched power out to the starter motor
3. Solenoid "trigger" from the keyswitch (via any interlocks)
Ground on most starters is provided via the engine block.

Shorting across 1 and 2 will make the starter spin and is probably what the OP did with his wrench.
Shorting from 1 to 3 will also make the starter spin.
Shorting from 1 to ground will cause many sparks and will melt things in short order
Shorting from 2 to ground will do nothing unless the solenoid is on (like when the tractor is cranking). In that case, it will do the same as shorting from 1 to ground.
Shorting from 3 to ground will do nothing unless the key is in "start" position (like when the tractor is cranking). In that case, it will blow a fuse.

Aaron Z

 

[Coyote machine]

Can you find or make a wiring diagram to show what you mean because what I get out of your post goes against every negative ground starter with a built in solenoid that I have seen.
Generally speaking, a starter will have 3 terminals:
1. Battery in
2. Switched power out to the starter motor
3. Solenoid "trigger" from the keyswitch (via any interlocks)
Ground on most starters is provided via the engine block.

Shorting across 1 and 2 will make the starter spin and is probably what the OP did with his wrench.
Shorting from 1 to 3 will also make the starter spin.
Shorting from 1 to ground will cause many sparks and will melt things in short order
Shorting from 2 to ground will do nothing unless the solenoid is on (like when the tractor is cranking). In that case, it will do the same as shorting from 1 to ground.
Shorting from 3 to ground will do nothing unless the key is in "start" position (like when the tractor is cranking). In that case, it will blow a fuse.

Aaron Z

To put an end to the continuing haggling over the details of completion of the circuit, which allowed the defective solenoid to engage Gary's starter, I will say this. The starter is, IF grounding as intended, finding it's ground through the housing's contact with the block. By Gary placing the wrench on a positive, 'energized post' on the solenoid, and consequently it's grounding to the #2 or #3 post you described as terminals above, the circuit was completed and the starter and solenoid were both engaged. In this instance, probably, as I've stated numerous times already the solenoid remained engaged/spinning until Gary managed to hit it with his wrench, and it then stopped making noise/turning.
I doubt it's possible without seeing the actual tractor to determine which post made the remaining connection through Gary's wrench, and for the most part it is inconsequential in the overall scheme of things.
To me, if a positive post and another post are shorted, or bridged via a piece of metal, (Gary's wrench) resulting in engagement of the circuit in question, (the solenoid activating the starter's Bendix), then the resulting circuit is a shorting to ground. Meaning the completion of the circuit from hot on solenoid to hot, (either mentioned other hot post of solenoid through the ground that the starter provides by being bolted to it's ground source, the engine block). If you prefer to call that faulty completion of the circuit something else that's fine by me. Just because it happens to be similar to the way the engine might be started by the keyswitch or switched power to the starter via a short does not make it a valid way to start the engine, hence the term, shorted to ground. Without ground at the block the circuit would not be complete. With the wrench shorting whichever 2 posts on the solenoid the path to ground via the starter was completed thus energizing solenoid and starter.
I think we're saying the same thing, just from possibly different descriptive perspectives. You refer to shorting to ground above, and use the terms short and ground, as do I.
I will try using Google to see what terminology is used most often in starter circuits regarding shorting to ground, and see what results come up.

 

[DarkBlack]

Can you find or make a wiring diagram to show what you mean because what I get out of your post goes against every negative ground starter with a built in solenoid that I have seen.
Generally speaking, a starter will have 3 terminals:
1. Battery in
2. Switched power out to the starter motor
3. Solenoid "trigger" from the keyswitch (via any interlocks)
Ground on most starters is provided via the engine block.

Shorting across 1 and 2 will make the starter spin and is probably what the OP did with his wrench.
Shorting from 1 to 3 will also make the starter spin.
Shorting from 1 to ground will cause many sparks and will melt things in short order
Shorting from 2 to ground will do nothing unless the solenoid is on (like when the tractor is cranking). In that case, it will do the same as shorting from 1 to ground.
Shorting from 3 to ground will do nothing unless the key is in "start" position (like when the tractor is cranking). In that case, it will blow a fuse.

Aaron Z

I already pointed out to him way back on post #138 (page 14), that starters don't engage when shorted to ground.
His only interest is just filling the thread with a bunch of technically incorrect posts ( wordy ones...) in an attempt to make it look like he meant what he didn't mean, that he didn't understand, while keeping a debate going.

 

[aczlan]

To me, if a positive post and another post are shorted, or bridged via a piece of metal, (Gary's wrench) resulting in engagement of the circuit in question, (the solenoid activating the starter's Bendix), then the resulting circuit is a shorting to ground. Meaning the completion of the circuit from hot on solenoid to hot, (either mentioned other hot post of solenoid through the ground that the starter provides by being bolted to it's ground source, the engine block). If you prefer to call that faulty completion of the circuit something else that's fine by me. Just because it happens to be similar to the way the engine might be started by the keyswitch or switched power to the starter via a short does not make it a valid way to start the engine, hence the term, shorted to ground. Without ground at the block the circuit would not be complete. With the wrench shorting whichever 2 posts on the solenoid the path to ground via the starter was completed thus energizing solenoid and starter.
I think we're saying the same thing, just from possibly different descriptive perspectives. You refer to shorting to ground above, and use the terms short and ground, as do I.
I will try using Google to see what terminology is used most often in starter circuits regarding shorting to ground, and see what results come up.

.
Shorting to ground (as generally used) would refer to a case where your wrench went from post 1 to the engine block and bypassed the motor (sending all the current from post 1 to the engine block through the wrench).
Shorting to ground is not (AFAIK) used to describe causing current to flow to ground through the starter motor.
Generally, what the OP did is called shorting across the solenoid.

Aaron Z

 

[Coyote machine]

I already pointed out to him way back on post #138 (page 14), that starters don't engage when shorted to ground.
His only interest is just filling the thread with a bunch of technically incorrect posts ( wordy ones...) in an attempt to make it look like he meant what he didn't mean, that he didn't understand, while keeping a debate going.

You show me a completed circuit of any kind that doesn't return to a ground point from a hot 12volt wire.
You are so arrogant as to think you know what my interest is in this thread, or any place else for that matter?! Are you going to start talking about other things that you know nothing about, like ignore lists? Too wordy for you? Attention span overloaded? Pathetic. I'm not debating anyone, just answering questions directed my way. There is nothing technically incorrect about anything I've said, nor anything I didn't understand. I asked the OP to verify his solenoid was acting up prior to the incident to save reading through waste of time posts like yours, to get to the facts as the OP stated them.

.
Shorting to ground (as generally used) would refer to a case where your wrench went from post 1 to the engine block and bypassed the motor (sending all the current from post 1 to the engine block through the wrench).
Shorting to ground is not (AFAIK) used to describe causing current to flow to ground through the starter motor.
Generally, what the OP did is called shorting across the solenoid.

Aaron Z

A dead short would be what you described by a wrench going from a hot to something like the block, (ground). If there were a fuse in the particular hot wire it would blow to protect the wire. The starter circuit in most older tractors doesn't usually have fuse, BUT recent ones do, like the 60 AMP fuse in my starter circuit, for instance.
The starter motor is grounded to the block, and the block through the frame, and the frame through the tires to actual earth ground. A short caused by putting a wrench from a hot post on the solenoid and shorting the circuit to the starter from the solenoid cause the solenoid and starter circuits to make contact, energizing the solenoid and consequently the starter, thus completing the circuit through to ground. Short to ground.
You call it shorting across the solenoid, I call it a short to ground. We're both right because without the ground one has not completed a circuit. 12 volts present doesn't make the starter or solenoid active/spin. Completion of the circuit by key switch, or in this case, wrench across the posts, both make the engine try to start.