Coyote machine
Super Member
- Joined
- May 4, 2009
- Messages
- 7,641
- Location
- Southern VT
- Tractor
- 22 SANY SY 50U, '10 Kioti DK 40se/hst KL-401 FEL, loaded tires, KB-2485 bhoe, Tuffline TB160 BB, Woods QA forks, MIE Hydraulic bhoe thumb & ripper tooth, Igland 4001 winch, & GR-20 Log Grapple. Woods BBX72" Brush Mower. Diamondplate aluminum canopy
Here's the thing about the term I use to describe what happened with the starter circuit on Gary's tractor. When I say 'short to ground' my meaning is this: a short path to a ground (negative potential) thus completing a circuit. This is different than a 'dead short' which is accomplished by the example of the wrench between, for instance, the positive and negative post of a battery. If I'm not mistaken, Gary didn't hold the wrench for any length of time against the terminals on the starter solenoid. On the previous page Gary describes picking up the wrench again and tapping on the solenoid to get it to stop: (making noise, being energized?). He did this after the initial, what I described as his short to ground; meaning his wrench allowed the defective and intermittent starter solenoid to complete a short path to ground, through the starter, NOT it's casing, and thus the starter was energized long enough to engage the flywheel. With the tractor in gear the flywheel could not overcome the need to move forward while trying to start the engine. The starting of the engine was hampered by both the trans being in gear AND the tractor encountering the mostly immovable fence, thus it never started. Gary managed to put the trans in reverse, then finally into neutral, and we know the rest.
FWIW, this electrical nightmare Gary encountered is not all that different than what can occur in household wiring circuits. Certain conditions cause shorts at an outlet, for instance. If the culprit is a faulty lamp or other object the house's wiring is saved by the appropriate sized breaker tripping. If the shortest path to ground is a wet human standing in a puddle of water in their bathroom they will likely die before the breaker trips to save them and the house wiring. Unless there is a GFCI in the circuit, which has it's own breaker in the outlet, and the faulty path to ground, (in this case wet human) is sensed by the GFCI's internal highly sensitive circuit which will trip in milliseconds to save the wet human from fatal shock.
Now code requires one further step toward circuit safety; arc fault breakers, which keep a protected circuit from allow any arc that could cause a fire or similar damage from doing so, similar to how the GFCI works. In this case it's similar to the wrench across both hots of the starter solenoid and will sense that fault and open the circuit to prevent it from continuing.
The difference is neither the starter nor the solenoid have any safety in place, no breakers or fuses to open the circuit and stop the damage created by the fault; in this case the wrench literally being 'thrown' into the works.
The rubber boot some starter solenoids have to prevent this type of fault is mediocre at best since it is easily defeated by an operator.
What was described as best practice for testing a faulty starter/solenoid is what is sold as a remote starter switch; a two wire switch with clips for the small spade terminal of the solenoid and one clip for positive feed to the second wire. Pressing the button energizes the circuit and makes the starter engage, if no faults are present, and most importantly keeps the operator clear of the machine and any potential moving parts.
From what I seem to remember of Gary's various descriptions of what took place over numerous posts it seems that the solenoid was defective and working on occasion but intermittently at best. If it were to be removed from the starter and broken down to it's internal components I believe there would be evidence of what was causing the solenoid to act up as it had been and most recently did with Gary's unfortunate incident.
FWIW, this electrical nightmare Gary encountered is not all that different than what can occur in household wiring circuits. Certain conditions cause shorts at an outlet, for instance. If the culprit is a faulty lamp or other object the house's wiring is saved by the appropriate sized breaker tripping. If the shortest path to ground is a wet human standing in a puddle of water in their bathroom they will likely die before the breaker trips to save them and the house wiring. Unless there is a GFCI in the circuit, which has it's own breaker in the outlet, and the faulty path to ground, (in this case wet human) is sensed by the GFCI's internal highly sensitive circuit which will trip in milliseconds to save the wet human from fatal shock.
Now code requires one further step toward circuit safety; arc fault breakers, which keep a protected circuit from allow any arc that could cause a fire or similar damage from doing so, similar to how the GFCI works. In this case it's similar to the wrench across both hots of the starter solenoid and will sense that fault and open the circuit to prevent it from continuing.
The difference is neither the starter nor the solenoid have any safety in place, no breakers or fuses to open the circuit and stop the damage created by the fault; in this case the wrench literally being 'thrown' into the works.
The rubber boot some starter solenoids have to prevent this type of fault is mediocre at best since it is easily defeated by an operator.
What was described as best practice for testing a faulty starter/solenoid is what is sold as a remote starter switch; a two wire switch with clips for the small spade terminal of the solenoid and one clip for positive feed to the second wire. Pressing the button energizes the circuit and makes the starter engage, if no faults are present, and most importantly keeps the operator clear of the machine and any potential moving parts.
From what I seem to remember of Gary's various descriptions of what took place over numerous posts it seems that the solenoid was defective and working on occasion but intermittently at best. If it were to be removed from the starter and broken down to it's internal components I believe there would be evidence of what was causing the solenoid to act up as it had been and most recently did with Gary's unfortunate incident.