Late last night

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   / Late last night #81  
I don't disagree with that at all Roy. And, I appreciate your usual thoughtful input of under what circumstances you would choose to use your gun.

When a person prepares to and contemplates the use of a gun, they have self-appointed themselves to an exacting position. Anything can happen from being the hero of the day to being charged with homicide. If it goes wrong they shouldn't blame anyone but themselves; the person who appointed them to that exacting position.

When people begin to think in the direction of there being justifiable deadly mistakes that can be blamed on someone else (stupid kid yells Freeze!), that is a very slippery slope.

I don't hate my guns or anyone else's guns. I am sane enough to accept that guns have some unique abilities that can and do lead to some unique challenges. There are many more daily gun homicides, accidental deaths and injuries than heroes. There is no reason to believe that adding more guns to the situation will reverse those statistics.

Without looking it up, my impression is that mandatory training for gun ownership and carry permits can trim the accidental death and injury category on a per capita gun owner basis.

Differing opinions on this, I don't trust many "studies" on this, but I really don't think you can make a statement of fact that cannot be refuted by someone, facts and opinions are varied and should not be confused. Just one link of many: CDC Study: Use of Firearms For Self-Defense is
 
   / Late last night #82  
Differing opinions on this, I don't trust many "studies" on this, but I really don't think you can make a statement of fact that cannot be refuted by someone, facts and opinions are varied and should not be confused. Just one link of many: CDC Study: Use of Firearms For Self-Defense is

Very true...and demographics has a distinct effect. If gang and drug related shootings were taken out of the mix, homicides would be relatively low. Considering many in these two groups are prohibited from possessing firearms (felonies, etc.) which is another indicator the laws don't work.
 
   / Late last night #83  
Differing opinions on this, I don't trust many "studies" on this, but I really don't think you can make a statement of fact that cannot be refuted by someone, facts and opinions are varied and should not be confused. Just one link of many: CDC Study: Use of Firearms For Self-Defense is

Yes, the accuracy and relevance of studies need to be carefully considered along with the various interpretations people derive from them, granted.

Defensive Gun Use (DGU) numbers are very squishy since there is no formal data collection associated with them in contrast to the required reporting of violent injury and death by LE, hospitals and coroners. The various studies reach widely differing conclusions about the real number of DGU incidents. A lot of survey data used is getting aged, perhaps beyond relevance given the pace of increasing gun ownership. There is no standard definition of what constitutes DGU or situational breakdown within that definition as is the case with reported deaths and injuries.

I haven't read the 2013 CDC report referenced in the linked articles. I seem to run into "buy the book" when I look for the actual report. There is this 2010 CDC report Surveillance for Violent Deaths but it doesn't include DGU statistics.

EDIT: I found it. Here is the 2013 report: Priorities for Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence

From the Limitations section:
Finally, protective factor data (i.e., characteristics or circumstances that reduce the risk for violent death) are not collected by NVDRS because of the nature of death certificate, coroner/medical examiner records, and law enforcement reports, which typically contain only circumstances associated with risk factors.


Defensive Gun Use (Part I) - The CDC Report on Gun Violence
REVIEW OF CDC REPORT
The CDC report on gun violence was over 120 pages in length, but sadly had very little to say about defensive gun use. I will summarize their findings in list fashion

* According to the FBI Uniform Crime Reporting Program, between 2007 and 2011, over 600,000 people reported facing an assailant armed with a gun.
* According to the FBI, 3% of firearm assaults known to police result in a death.

* According to a Pew Survey, 鍍he vast majority of gun owners say that having a gun makes them feel safer. And far more today than in 1999 cite protection rather than hunting and other activities as the main reason for why they own guns (Pew Research Center, 2013)

* Four studies have been done showing that crime victims who actively used a gun to defend themselves had lower rates of injury than crime victims who did not use guns to defend themselves - Kleck 1988; Kleck and DeLone 1993; Tark and Kleck 2004; and Southwick 2000.

* Defensive gun use is a fact but it is difficult to count accurately.

* The National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) has estimated that there are between 60,000 and 105,000 DGUs per year. Between the years 1992 and 1994, the NCVS reported there were in total 116,000 DGUs.

* Kleck and Gertz (1995) estimated the annual occurrence of DGUs to be around 2.5 million per year.

* The CDC report made no effort to reconcile the differing estimates of DGUs, except to note that the estimate provided by the Kleck group was larger by an order of magnitude than the estimate arising from the NCVS. The CDC report noted that the estimate of DGU provided by the Kleck group is twice again as large as the estimate of the Dept. of Justice that there are 1.3 million crimes committed with a gun in the USA every year.

* According to the CDC report: 典he 2005 National Research Council study found no persuasive evidence from available studies that passage of right to carry laws decrease or increase violent crime.

The take-home message by the CDC report on gun violence is that DGU does occur, and there are very large discrepancies in the available estimates. And sadly, the CDC report contains no suggestions for future research to better or more accurately assess DGU.
 
   / Late last night #84  
Its always interesting to view the demographics of the area where both sides of a conversation live. ;)

Yes it is. That was my point concerning violent crime rates between Kentucky and New York.
 
   / Late last night #85  
ya know, I've learned more re DGU, etc., in the last few posts than in all the prior threads where guns were discussed. Thanks for the reasonable tone, personal commentary and pointers to CDC studies.

TripleR, dave, great posts:thumbsup:

Hopefully, subsequent posts will remain as level headed and considered....meaning no name calling and wild statements.

Amazingly, there was recently some burglars caught by a couple of victims, at gun point, a couple of days after their crime.
Burglary victims hold suspects at gunpoint after passing them on the road with a truck full of loot (VIDEO)

While I caution that making a citizens arrest in such a manner is dangerous, it did work this time, and the victims used their weapons to detain the burglars until LEO arrived.

Every time I hear about something like this, I wonder what I would have done a couple of years ago had I observed the vehicle entering my ranch around 3 AM. It dumped off a still warm body of a teenage girl they (a gun and gal) had shot about a mile from my house. I own guns and have a CCL. There is only one road into the place. I likely would have confronted them on the way out in the dark, not knowing they had just dropped off a body and were armed. It is easy to understand why LEO's approach vehicles weapons drawn and demand the occupants exit the vehicles with hands visible. Never know the mindset/capabilities of the occupants. However, I was asleep at the time, so only discovered the body next morning about 10AM.
 
   / Late last night #86  
It is easy to understand why LEO's approach vehicles weapons drawn and demand the occupants exit the vehicles with hands visible. Never know the mindset/capabilities of the occupants.


I totally understand and agree. We've got an incident going on here now over a Police shooting. It appears that every time the Policeman escalated the level of control the shooting victim escalated the level of disobedience. This continued until the trigger was pulled. I was taught and I have taught my family, the Policeman is in charge, follow his guidance to the letter. Tough job. Don't envy them at all. Totally respect them.
 
   / Late last night #89  
A friend of my wife walked in a convenience store around 10:30 last night. Some kid walked in and yelled "FREEZE" as loud as he could. This is Kentucky, everybody is packing, What an idiot.
If everybody is packing, maybe they should all have drawn down on him, without firing, and after soiling his shorts, that idiot would probably not ever do that again. And, yes, I have been taught to never pull a weapon unless you intend to use it, but that doesn't mean you have to use it after it's pulled. I cannot comment on my action/reaction because I wasn't there. I am sure I'd have been pretty shaken up, though. Thanks to all the intelligent people that participated in this fact filled discussion. A lot of food for thought.:thumbsup: 445A
 
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