The reality of aluminum body panels.

[roadhunter]

So, all the years I saw aluminum parts with astronomical prices were negated by your insistence that this part is the exact same price?

It may be listed at the same price, it may not. It may be a ploy by Ford, to leave the price unchanged for now, so people don't freak out. They certainly are savoy enough to see this kind of publicity as bad.

There is no question raw aluminum sheet metal costs more than steel. And, no auto maker is I have ever dealt with has ever been generous when it comes to crash parts. They are a high profit item to them.

So, you can believe what you want. I don't believe for one second, that part is going to cost the same, in the end.

Exactly. doesn't matter what manufacturer or insurance company. The costs will get passed along to the consumer at some point. There is no magic way to sell or repair aluminum panels for the same price as steel body panels or most cars would already be made of aluminum. In time that may change but for now there is clearly a difference.

 

[fordmantpw]

I've read some of the 175 responses, but my questions are: How much weight is saved on any comparable model? Did it really make that much of a difference in mpg? And isn't the truck weight a factor when towing a trailer i.e. isn't a heavier truck more stable for towing? It seems to me that mpg can be increased a bit without sacrificing the ability of the truck, but not a whole lot.

The heaviest model (crew cab) can save over 700 lbs. That's pretty substantial. Yes, weight does factor into the stability of the truck, but with electronic helpers (sway control, etc), the added weight in the tow vehicle isn't as necessary.

Not really. Just because Ford charges the same doesn't mean they cost the same to produce. Common sense will tell you it likely costs more. But you guys seem to believe that somehow there are no additional costs associated with manufacturing, repairing, or insuring aluminum body vehicles which is simply not possible. There are going to be additional costs which I suspect will decrease over time but there is a difference.

As a consumer, why would I care what it costs to produce? What's important to me is the price I have to pay. As a Ford stockholder, I care what it costs to produce, but the majority of folks only care about their out of pocket cost. So, in reality, if it costs the same to you, but costs 50% more to produce, wouldn't the consumer be happier since they are getting more for their money?

But we suspect that the introduction of the all-aluminum 2015 Ford F-150 won’t end up being the financial apocalypse for owners that many are making it out to be. So let’s turn the wick down on the firestorm for a while, eh?

And we have a winner!! That's what I've been trying to say!

 

[ray66v]

I agree with your logic. How much more should this repair have cost in your professional opinion? Here is the invoice from the article.

The estimate is interesting. In 35 years, I rarely saw an insurance pay 20 hours to repair a panel.

I am not saying it isn't worth it. It is. Getting those body lines right, is time consuming. We usually make more money fixing panels than replacing them, but if you can't get the money out of the insurance company to do it, you replace it.

Just like when you reach a certain point, you total the car out, because the damage exceeds the value of the car, when you reach a certain point, you junk the panel, and replace it.

Especially considering, that it is a new truck, I would have written to replace the panel, and would have had no trouble getting that approved by an insurance company. I also would have had no problem getting paid to blend the color on the rear door of the cab. To insure there would be no chance of there being a difference in color. Especially with a bright metalic like this, no matter how close you get the color, even if you use the same can of paint you used to paint it in the first place, there is always a chance, you can see some difference in the sun, on some strange angle. They left that off their estimate.

I still don't know how this is constructed. And, I don't know, if the new panel can be glued on, or it has to be welded. I suspect it can be glued. But, that all could effect my judgement, about whether I could repair, or replace it.

If it was my truck, I would probably repair the panel, to save the cost of the part. But, like I said it is tough getting those lines right.

Not having access to my estimating computer anymore, and not knowing what the labor to change the panel is, or the part price, I can't get anymore specific than that.

The insurance companies will no doubt fight paying higher labor rates for working on these, due to the aluminum construction. They will probably try to force their direct repair shops to do them for the same rate as steel. When they get you to were most of the work in your shop is from them, they have you over a barrel. So, it will be interesting to see how that works out.

$60 per hour would be nice, but no one here gets that for labor right now. I believe everyone is still in the $40's.

They did pay higher labor rates for the all aluminum cars. But, that's mostly because there are only a small number of places that do them.

 

[mikehaugen]

This ain't the same aluminum that's in your beer cans...

Do you think it's that special that the recouped cost from recycling is even a consideration when pricing panels? Chances are Ford won't see that anyway and the body shop will get it, I highly doubt they will have a core charge. How much do you think it would cost to send a fender back to Ford?

Or perhaps they are just going to get the system in place for their next breakthrough... platinum panels?

 

[Ford850]

I think they said they specifically requested the panel be repaired and NOT replaced, to enhance the test.
I read another follow up article to that original. I think it was over on PUTC, and they did some more research. They found the labor rates in CA were much lower than what the article quoted, with the highest for aluminum being $90, not $120. I think the range was $45 - $90. I also read that Ford designed the new truck so the panels were easier to replace than previous models, which would lower the labor hours on repairs. This truck has been in the works for many years. It's not like they just said, "hey lets switch to aluminum" a couple years ago. They knew of the drawbacks, and have done a pretty good job taking them into consideration. It's not rocket science. Hmmm, or is it?

 

[ray66v]

Do you think it's that special that the recouped cost from recycling is even a consideration when pricing panels? Chances are Ford won't see that anyway and the body shop will get it, I highly doubt they will have a core charge. How much do you think it would cost to send a fender back to Ford?

I agree.

Radiators, condensers, and wheels, have been aluminum for decades. They never wanted any of those back.

Back in the day, the scrapper got all the money, for getting rid of the steel for you. But, eventually, there was enough aluminum, we started setting that aside, and taking it to the scrap yard ourselves.

You don't get rich, but it's definitely worth while to do it.

 

[fordmantpw]

I think they said they specifically requested the panel be repaired and NOT replaced, to enhance the test.
I read another follow up article to that original. I think it was over on PUTC, and they did some more research. They found the labor rates in CA were much lower than what the article quoted, with the highest for aluminum being $90, not $120. I think the range was $45 - $90. I also read that Ford designed the new truck so the panels were easier to replace than previous models, which would lower the labor hours on repairs. This truck has been in the works for many years. It's not like they just said, "hey lets switch to aluminum" a couple years ago. They knew of the drawbacks, and have done a pretty good job taking them into consideration. It's not rocket science. Hmmm, or is it?

Well said!

And yes, it's likely the repair cost would have been very similar had they replaced the panel. It should take less to replace an Al panel than a steel one. No welding, just glue and rivet the new one on.

 

[ray66v]

I think they said they specifically requested the panel be repaired and NOT replaced, to enhance the test.
I read another follow up article to that original. I think it was over on PUTC, and they did some more research. They found the labor rates in CA were much lower than what the article quoted, with the highest for aluminum being $90, not $120. I think the range was $45 - $90. I also read that Ford designed the new truck so the panels were easier to replace than previous models, which would lower the labor hours on repairs. This truck has been in the works for many years. It's not like they just said, "hey lets switch to aluminum" a couple years ago. They knew of the drawbacks, and have done a pretty good job taking them into consideration. It's not rocket science. Hmmm, or is it?

Whether they require aluminum welding, will likely be a big factor in all this.

Anyone can glue a panel on. Many could weld a steel one on. At this point, few can weld an aluminum one on.

That's why most shops do not repair all aluminum bodies.

Based on what you said here, and my gut, I suspect these are going to glue on. Perhaps even bolt on.

 

[fordmantpw]

Whether they require aluminum welding, will likely be a big factor in all this.

Anyone can glue a panel on. Many could weld a steel one on. At this point, few can weld an aluminum one on.

That's why most shops do not repair all aluminum bodies.

Based on what you said here, and my gut, I suspect these are going to glue on. Perhaps even bolt on.

They are glued and riveted. That comes directly from a Ford employee at Dearborn Truck Plant.

 

[wawajake]

This is nothing new. GM is and will always be very conservative. They are in willing to take chances and just wait 2 generations to adopt what others are doing. Some think this is a smart business practice, maybe it is, but to me it's not!

They all will be using aluminum in 10 years.

Chris

I would challenge that way of thinking.............lets look at what GM has tried that none of the other manufacturers dare stick their neck out on.............lets look at the plastic body panel they introduced in the Saturn line and also in their front wheel drive van (can't remember the name pointy front mid 90's) this was leading edge use , no rust solution , and you could bash a side door of a Saturn and it would just pop back out, I had a 1993 Saturn.........that was taking chances ......but the wise customers that saw the advantages of the plastic vehicles were not enough to make it worthwhile to GM so GM dropped them.............now look at Chrysler Jeep Dodge..........they stuck out their neck with 6 cylinder diesel engines in vehicles like the Jeep Liberty and Ja small engine in the Jeep Grand Cherokee and now finally a small engine diesel in the Dodge Ram..........these are things Ford and Chev only did in their heavy duty trucks, Chev finally with the Chevy Cruze Diesel...............so please do not pretend that Ford is the only one taking chances , they each have had their own speciality areas they have attempted to explore in high volume vehicles and Ford is now trying in F150 ...............there are probably countless other examples of engineering decisions that other major Manufacturers have made that Ford would not touch with a ten foot pole and maybe for their demographics they would be correct............but one only has to remember the mistakes that Ford has made to see some of those ideas were failures.........the rust buckets of the seventies where Ford's metal supplier was poorly chosen and body engineering questionable.............or the twin I beam that they stubbornly clung to despite its persistent problems...........or GM's problems with paint peeling on the galvanized hoods in the 80's 90"s and primer problems......all three major builders have some good and some bad........if your willing to not just look thru rose coloured glasses.