NX4510 and NX5010 pricing and review

   / NX4510 and NX5010 pricing and review #91  
I already pointed out an example of TSO with his 1648...it has 36.5hp at the PTO, and he says that really isn't enough for running his stump grinder, which he does pretty regularly (season, I'm sure).

Hey! Don't pick on my little Massey! Lol

She handles the grinder 90% of the time, but for really large stumps that are are relatively fresh, the HP isn't enough to sustain the RPM's needed to power the grinder thru them.

Honestly, the only thing that keeps stopping me from swapping to a higher HP CUT is that I just don't know how much HP would really be "enough" to keep the grinder spinning thru those more troublesome stumps. A few dealers that I spoke with said that, for the grinder at least, they didn't think I'd really notice going up 10'ish PTO HP.
 
   / NX4510 and NX5010 pricing and review #92  
Your argument makes assumptions about the purchaser's budget limitations that may not be there at all. The difference from an NX 4510 to the 6010 is only around $6K so it's not a huge jump, and the 5510 and 6010 have larger wheels and tires, which have some advantages.



Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it can't happen....that's sort of why they make machines with different horsepower levels. 5hp difference at the PTO isn't a big deal until you can't quite get the job done, or you get slowed down significantly, and then it matters a lot. TSO has mentioned wanting more PTO power for his Massey when he's used his stump grinder (going off memory)....and I'll bet 5hp more would solve that for him.



This is one of those things that sounds logical, but can be very hard to prove in reality. People automatically assume higher horsepower engines burn more fuel at all times, but that isn't always true. In many cases the higher horsepower engine burns more fuel at all times because it has a larger displacement, so pumping losses are higher and larger components have more friction, parasitic losses, etc. In this case, the Kioti NX engines are all the same size....same pumping efficiency, same friction, etc. The higher horsepower models are tuned differently (injectors and turbo settings), but that isn't going to make a big difference in fuel efficiency to put out X amount of horsepower. If you put all four engines on a test stand, and set them for something like 35hp at the PTO, they're going to be using about the same amount of fuel. In practice, the larger horsepower models will use a touch more fuel because they will be making more power at PTO speed than the lower horsepower models....but it's not going to be a huge difference.

Very well said about the budget issues. Each of us is different. I've formed my idea/opinion of buying as much HP as I can is based on my own real world experience. As I mentioned before I started out with the 37 hp then moved up to the 66 hp CUT. There are always times when I am engaged in pto and loader work that I fully use the extra HP and that the lessor hp simply would not work. Examples are many, but here are a few; A) Rotor tilling and discing or plowing land. I've hit tougher soil, rocks, clay that even now with the 66 hp can almost bog it down, but with a 35-40 hp it will bog down the tractor. So then I either can't till or plow those areas, or I waste much more time and fuel trying to 'baby' the implements through the tougher areas of ground. I'm also thinking that this causes much more wear and tear on the equipment with less hp as you are maxing out the rpm's and, in effect, forcing more work than they can handle. B) mowing... seems simple, when you are mowing fairly level ground that has already been cut, right? But add in thick, tangled brush/grass, soft soil and any incline and then what do you get? The smaller hp will, again, bog down or even worse could get stuck if you encounter a wet spot in the area you are mowing. If you have a 6 foot bush hog the thing weights about 1100 to 1200 lbs depending on type etc. I've hit many a wet spot that nearly bogged down the 66 hp, but with some quick thinking was able to muscle it through and keep on working... (read, getting a 4wd CUT stuck in a mucky spot with a 1200 pd implement on back that is now dragging in the mud is simply no fun...) C) pulling/pushing stuff (i.e. large trees) out of your way, or out of the woods. This one is a no brainer, I've had very large oak trees that were down that I needed to move out of the way. I literally beat the snot out of the 37 hp and one time bent a loader arm trying to move very dense & heavy oaks trees from point A to point B. The 66 hp just does everything I ask of it in this instance. You could say the same for moving large rocks with the loader. Now, for loader work. While you many not technically gain any 'lift' weight, you gain more tractor weight (translates into traction) and more power. If you have watched any of my early youtube video's, particularly the one where I dig a deer watering hole (with the 66hp), I will tell you that you simply can't do that type of loader work with a 40hp. OK, maybe I should clarify that a little.... You may be able to do the digging with the less hp, but again, it will take you much longer, possibly much more frustration, and much more wear and tear on the equipment by really, really taxing it. if you look at another of my videos pushing over a 30 foot tree and uprooting it with the 66 hp, you won't do that either with a 40 hp. I know this because I've tried many times with the 37. I can't say for sure what the 'magic' line of having enough hp for nearly any job is, but I prefer to err on the side of caution and get as much as I can swing now, because I know it will pay me back later. I'm not a mechanic so I don't really know how much more fuel you use with the 60 vs the 40, 45, or 50.. Perhaps you may even use less with a bigger hp engine if it is not taxed as hard doing the pto work?? If your budget is tighter and it might make the difference between getting and implement or not getting it, then that may be a good choice to go smaller. But if it were to mean that you just had to delay getting the implement, to get the hp, my recommendation still stands; get as much HP as you can possibly afford, because we are all finding jobs with our tractors that surprise us and when you have 60 hp at your disposal, 99% of the time you will be able to succeed at the job at hand. Whatever you decide though, good luck!!
 
   / NX4510 and NX5010 pricing and review #93  
Kapper, Please break up this post of yours so people can read it. :eek:
 
   / NX4510 and NX5010 pricing and review #94  
Very well said about the budget issues. Each of us is different. I've formed my idea/opinion of buying as much HP as I can is based on my own real world experience. As I mentioned before I started out with the 37 hp then moved up to the 66 hp CUT. There are always times when I am engaged in pto and loader work that I fully use the extra HP and that the lessor hp simply would not work. Examples are many, but here are a few; A) Rotor tilling and discing or plowing land. I've hit tougher soil, rocks, clay that even now with the 66 hp can almost bog it down, but with a 35-40 hp it will bog down the tractor. So then I either can't till or plow those areas, or I waste much more time and fuel trying to 'baby' the implements through the tougher areas of ground. I'm also thinking that this causes much more wear and tear on the equipment with less hp as you are maxing out the rpm's and, in effect, forcing more work than they can handle. B) mowing... seems simple, when you are mowing fairly level ground that has already been cut, right? But add in thick, tangled brush/grass, soft soil and any incline and then what do you get? The smaller hp will, again, bog down or even worse could get stuck if you encounter a wet spot in the area you are mowing. If you have a 6 foot bush hog the thing weights about 1100 to 1200 lbs depending on type etc. I've hit many a wet spot that nearly bogged down the 66 hp, but with some quick thinking was able to muscle it through and keep on working... (read, getting a 4wd CUT stuck in a mucky spot with a 1200 pd implement on back that is now dragging in the mud is simply no fun...) C) pulling/pushing stuff (i.e. large trees) out of your way, or out of the woods. This one is a no brainer, I've had very large oak trees that were down that I needed to move out of the way. I literally beat the snot out of the 37 hp and one time bent a loader arm trying to move very dense & heavy oaks trees from point A to point B. The 66 hp just does everything I ask of it in this instance. You could say the same for moving large rocks with the loader. Now, for loader work. While you many not technically gain any 'lift' weight, you gain more tractor weight (translates into traction) and more power. If you have watched any of my early youtube video's, particularly the one where I dig a deer watering hole (with the 66hp), I will tell you that you simply can't do that type of loader work with a 40hp. OK, maybe I should clarify that a little.... You may be able to do the digging with the less hp, but again, it will take you much longer, possibly much more frustration, and much more wear and tear on the equipment by really, really taxing it. if you look at another of my videos pushing over a 30 foot tree and uprooting it with the 66 hp, you won't do that either with a 40 hp. I know this because I've tried many times with the 37. I can't say for sure what the 'magic' line of having enough hp for nearly any job is, but I prefer to err on the side of caution and get as much as I can swing now, because I know it will pay me back later. I'm not a mechanic so I don't really know how much more fuel you use with the 60 vs the 40, 45, or 50.. Perhaps you may even use less with a bigger hp engine if it is not taxed as hard doing the pto work?? If your budget is tighter and it might make the difference between getting and implement or not getting it, then that may be a good choice to go smaller. But if it were to mean that you just had to delay getting the implement, to get the hp, my recommendation still stands; get as much HP as you can possibly afford, because we are all finding jobs with our tractors that surprise us and when you have 60 hp at your disposal, 99% of the time you will be able to succeed at the job at hand. Whatever you decide though, good luck!!

Didn't I hear that you're getting an NX6010? What will you be using it for instead of the 4720?
 
   / NX4510 and NX5010 pricing and review #96  
Didn't I hear that you're getting an NX6010? What will you be using it for instead of the 4720?

I will be keeping it. I have two farms that are 3 hours or so apart. I developed another farm that was a 2 hour drive by hauling my 4720 back and forth with implements for the last 2 years. So, I've decided to have one tractor for each place with its own implements. Originally, I was going to just get a used 35 to 40 hp cut for my smaller farm (15 acres). But then, as is usual for me, when I started pricing them and then adding the 'must have' options like 4 in 1 bucket, rear scv's, cab, etc I found that if you are going to attempt to get all those things in a used then you might as well buy new, and in my case take advantage of their financing. So, in short I will have them both. I plan on doing a detailed video comparing the two tit for tat, which is something that is sorely lacking these days. Not a lot for really good, in-depth reviews of all of these CUT's!
 
   / NX4510 and NX5010 pricing and review #97  
I will be keeping it. I have two farms that are 3 hours or so apart. I developed another farm that was a 2 hour drive by hauling my 4720 back and forth with implements for the last 2 years. So, I've decided to have one tractor for each place with its own implements. Originally, I was going to just get a used 35 to 40 hp cut for my smaller farm (15 acres). But then, as is usual for me, when I started pricing them and then adding the 'must have' options like 4 in 1 bucket, rear scv's, cab, etc I found that if you are going to attempt to get all those things in a used then you might as well buy new, and in my case take advantage of their financing. So, in short I will have them both. I plan on doing a detailed video comparing the two tit for tat, which is something that is sorely lacking these days. Not a lot for really good, in-depth reviews of all of these CUT's!

Ok cool. Well both are nice machines and I look forward to your review. I love when i have direct access to more than one machine at the same time ... Makes it easier to compare, not having to rely on memory. I think the JD cabs are really nice, albeit a bit cramped ... But good materials quality. On the direct other hand, the Kioti cab is really spacious but I feel they could've chosen better plastics. TIT-FOR-TAT to be sure. Really like the materials and space in my Massey cab, but hate how they designed it without incorporating any substantial storage space or level surfaces, both of which the JD and Kioti cabs addressed. There's pros and cons (which are subjective for the most part) to every tractor & cab, so it'll be good to hear another perspective.
 
   / NX4510 and NX5010 pricing and review #98  
Ok cool. Well both are nice machines and I look forward to your review. I love when i have direct access to more than one machine at the same time ... Makes it easier to compare, not having to rely on memory. I think the JD cabs are really nice, albeit a bit cramped ... But good materials quality. On the direct other hand, the Kioti cab is really spacious but I feel they could've chosen better plastics. TIT-FOR-TAT to be sure. Really like the materials and space in my Massey cab, but hate how they designed it without incorporating any substantial storage space or level surfaces, both of which the JD and Kioti cabs addressed. There's pros and cons (which are subjective for the most part) to every tractor & cab, so it'll be good to hear another perspective.

I've entertained those 3M sticker hooks since it occurred to me there is a lot of space up high and back that isn't being used and I would like a coat hanger, hat rack.
 
   / NX4510 and NX5010 pricing and review #99  
I've entertained those 3M sticker hooks since it occurred to me there is a lot of space up high and back that isn't being used and I would like a coat hanger, hat rack.

I actually employ one of those 3m cell phone cubby/holder and it works well.
 
   / NX4510 and NX5010 pricing and review #100  
Very well said about the budget issues. Each of us is different. I've formed my idea/opinion of buying as much HP as I can is based on my own real world experience.

As I mentioned before I started out with the 37 hp then moved up to the 66 hp CUT. There are always times when I am engaged in pto and loader work that I fully use the extra HP and that the lessor hp simply would not work. Examples are many, but here are a few;

A) Rotor tilling and discing or plowing land. I've hit tougher soil, rocks, clay that even now with the 66 hp can almost bog it down, but with a 35-40 hp it will bog down the tractor. So then I either can't till or plow those areas, or I waste much more time and fuel trying to 'baby' the implements through the tougher areas of ground. I'm also thinking that this causes much more wear and tear on the equipment with less hp as you are maxing out the rpm's and, in effect, forcing more work than they can handle.

B) mowing... seems simple, when you are mowing fairly level ground that has already been cut, right? But add in thick, tangled brush/grass, soft soil and any incline and then what do you get? The smaller hp will, again, bog down or even worse could get stuck if you encounter a wet spot in the area you are mowing. If you have a 6 foot bush hog the thing weights about 1100 to 1200 lbs depending on type etc. I've hit many a wet spot that nearly bogged down the 66 hp, but with some quick thinking was able to muscle it through and keep on working... (read, getting a 4wd CUT stuck in a mucky spot with a 1200 pd implement on back that is now dragging in the mud is simply no fun...)

C) pulling/pushing stuff (i.e. large trees) out of your way, or out of the woods. This one is a no brainer, I've had very large oak trees that were down that I needed to move out of the way. I literally beat the snot out of the 37 hp and one time bent a loader arm trying to move very dense & heavy oaks trees from point A to point B. The 66 hp just does everything I ask of it in this instance. You could say the same for moving large rocks with the loader.

Now, for loader work. While you many not technically gain any 'lift' weight, you gain more tractor weight (translates into traction) and more power. If you have watched any of my early youtube video's, particularly the one where I dig a deer watering hole (with the 66hp), I will tell you that you simply can't do that type of loader work with a 40hp. OK, maybe I should clarify that a little.... You may be able to do the digging with the less hp, but again, it will take you much longer, possibly much more frustration, and much more wear and tear on the equipment by really, really taxing it. if you look at another of my videos pushing over a 30 foot tree and uprooting it with the 66 hp, you won't do that either with a 40 hp. I know this because I've tried many times with the 37.

I can't say for sure what the 'magic' line of having enough hp for nearly any job is, but I prefer to err on the side of caution and get as much as I can swing now, because I know it will pay me back later. I'm not a mechanic so I don't really know how much more fuel you use with the 60 vs the 40, 45, or 50.. Perhaps you may even use less with a bigger hp engine if it is not taxed as hard doing the pto work?? If your budget is tighter and it might make the difference between getting and implement or not getting it, then that may be a good choice to go smaller. But if it were to mean that you just had to delay getting the implement, to get the hp, my recommendation still stands; get as much HP as you can possibly afford, because we are all finding jobs with our tractors that surprise us and when you have 60 hp at your disposal, 99% of the time you will be able to succeed at the job at hand. Whatever you decide though, good luck!!

I've taken the liberty to put in some paragraphs in your reply. I hope the changes don't distort anything you said.

You mention a 37hp and a 66hp tractor but you don't state specifically whether they are on the same frame size (I doubt it). There is no question that a larger frame higher horsepower tractor will do more work than a smaller frame lower horsepower tractor. Nobody here is disputing that. However, the issue being debated is the relative advantages of more or less horsepower with the same size frame, identical loader, tractor weight almost identical, and identical hydraulics. As best I can tell the only difference other than horsepower is tire size.

The engines for the NX4510 and 6010 are based on the identical 3 cylinder block and are both naturally aspirated according to Kioti's website. Of course Kioti has never been able to get their website accurate and today both the 45hp and 60hp variants are listed as having the identical 1.8 liter displacement. I rather doubt that is accurate. The other guys here claim to know a lot more about those engines so maybe they can fill us in. I've looked on Kioti's website for the specific fuel consumption graphs for the NX engine series. Nothing to be found and they have even removed the charts they used to have posted for the DK line engines. The general principles are the same with diesels however so a chart demonstrating specific fuel consumption for a Yanmar marine engine is informative. I've posted the jpg below. It basically shows that diesel engines use MORE fuel per kilowatt of power produced when run at LOWER rpm. Running an engine designed to put out 60 hp at 1500rpm to produce the same power as a 45hp engine running at 2000rpm will show that the 60hp engine uses more fuel to produce the same power.

I'm all for efficiency but I don't know of examples of higher horsepower diesels that are equally efficient at the same output. Bigger pistons, bigger bore, more friction surface has to waste fuel when not running at optimal engine speed for efficiency. More important, if diesel engines have their most efficient output close to PTO RPM, then a more powerful engine doing the same work as a smaller engine is going to be operating in a suboptimal RPM range for efficiency. I'm not an engineer but that just stands to reason. Also, while some folks here claim that you would expend the same amount of fuel running a mower with either a high or lower hp engine, it seems impossible to do that unless you run the more powerful engine at a lower RPM. You cannot do that when mowing and expect the same cut. Mowers are engineered to give their best cut at PTO speed. That means if the lower HP engine will be running at PTO speed for a given HP while the higher HP engine running the same mower will be running at significantly lower RPM. Of course the higher horsepower tractor should simply be running a larger mower but that has consequences too. The difference between a 6ft medium duty bush hog and an 8ft medium duty bush hog is a couple of grand last I checked. Pretty much the same story with other implements too. Bigger implements might be desirable but there are good reasons why the vast majority of TBN tractor owners tend to top out at about 6ft implements. If you really think eight foot implements make sense then 60hp might make sense. It would be inefficient however to run six foot implements with a bigger engine than necessary.

With regard to rototilling or discing, horsepower certainly can make a difference in the size implement you can use. For rototilling, 40hp seems fine to run a six foot tiller in my experience. I rototill in low range can can break new sod, wet or dry without even running at full PTO speed. I'm sure a seven or eight foot tiller would require more horsepower. It will also cost almost double what a six foot tiller costs. If you are a commercial farmer that cost may well make total sense. Most folks on TBN are not using their tractors for commercial purposes full time so that calculus is tougher to justify especially for an implement that gets used once or twice a year as with a rototiller.

Mowing seems the area where more HP might well be justified so long as the appropriate size mower is used. As a 40hp does fine running a six foot bush hog, I'd imagine similar efficiency would dictate an eight foot bush hog for a 60hp tractor. Pretty steep price jump from 6ft rotary to 8ft rotary of similar duty rating. Again, for commercial use it might be easy to justify but most TBNers buying Kioti DK or NX size machines are not commercial operators.

I've never run a 3PT stump grinder. I note however that a hydraulic $38,000 Vermeer stump grinder uses a 34hp diesel engine. . A 24" wheel 3pt stump grinder model uses max of 35hp and cuts 10" below grade. A pro 34" model cuts 12" below grade and runs on 35-100hp....why stop at 60hp???

Your comments on pushing trees over and use of the loader are just wrong IMO. The NX tractors are all the same weight and have the same loader. You bent (!!!) an FEL arm on your tractor which shows that even a 37hp tractor can produce damaging amounts of force when used inappropriately on a tractor FEL. Tractor FELs are designed and manufactured to lift not push. We all push with them but clearly there is a reason bulldozers have short fat FEL arms rather than long skinny ones like on a tractor. Having more HP available to push might well allow more force to be exerted against a tree but it is a dangerous thing to do. I've pushed over many trees with my 40hp DKse, not sure I'd want to put even more force on the identical loader (different number same loader ) with an NX.

My bottom line: if you really need 60hp for something other than a larger mower, get a bigger frame tractor. Putting 60hp into the NX frame is akin to putting 500hp into a F150. Very limited returns. Get a F250 instead.
 

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