Whats wrong with tier 4

[s219]

As I was flipping through my Operator's Manual, I noticed this statement: "Since this engine adopts EPA Tier 4 and Interim Tier 4 standards...".

This is a 2008 29hp. It "adopting Interim Tier 4" is no shock based on the chart s219 has posted a couple of times but, what was a little perplexing to me was that it also "adopts EPA Tier 4" as in seeming to mean final Tier 4? This tractor has no DPF. It doesn't appear to have any type of catalytic exhaust.

I have no idea what it could really mean or why Kubota would put both, but my guess is that the tractor satisfies some Tier 4 Final and some Tier 4 Interim standards (the final being more rigorous) and Kubota is shooting for as many brownie points as they can get. One reason I like the chart I posted is because it gives the basics. However, there were a lot of variations within the tiers and years, and the manufacturers were able to use/buy/trade credits based on other tractors in their fleet. Same things car manufacturers did with MPG ratings between car and truck sales, to get a fleet average (called CAFE -- corporate average fuel economy -- if I remember right). I suspect tractor manufacturers played games in bookkeeping to get their EPA emissions fleet average where it needed to be. All a guess on my part.

 

[Btown]

As I was flipping through my Operator's Manual, I noticed this statement: "Since this engine adopts EPA Tier 4 and Interim Tier 4 standards...". This is a 2008 29hp. It "adopting Interim Tier 4" is no shock based on the chart s219 has posted a couple of times but, what was a little perplexing to me was that it also "adopts EPA Tier 4" as in seeming to mean final Tier 4? This tractor has no DPF. It doesn't appear to have any type of catalytic exhaust.

Check out the new 2015 29 hp kubotas see if they still have no after treatment.

 

[Btown]

Here it is right off of Kubota's website. New Final Tier 4 engines use DOC/DPF combination. Your 2008 was Interim Tier 4 along with most other tractor engines at that time.

 

[DavesTractor]

The issue of the Tier rollouts is confusing because it is complicated. Different HP ranges had to comply in different manners at different times, and then we had the Flex units that were allowed to come in. Interim Tier IV and then the real Tier IV....this is not easy to keep track of. Some low volume manufacturers were given extended time to comply. As a dealer, I do not pretend to have a handle on all the dates and details. Whenever I seem to think that I have it figured out, I find another twist and realize I only know part of the picture. They hire people just to keep track of this stuff at the corporate level.

I do know that the new Mahindra Tier IV models are not interim, they are full Tier IV (under 75HP models) and have no DPF or DEF. They have a common rail system and a DOC. Simple.

The 1533-1538 use the same engine as the 50HP, so a big 4-cylinder with the fuel turned way down. That engine ought to outlive 3 tractors.

 

[truckdiagnostics]

Based on the attached it would appear Kubota is loosing the DPF also. There is is still after treatment in the DOC, so there is hope. here is link where it came from
Kubota Engine America - LATEST NEWS
here is the chart
View attachment New Kubota T4f Engine Models.pdf

 

[McREBEL]

There are no new 2015 29 hp Kubota tractors that I am aware of. Post me a pic if you find one.

Here it is right off of Kubota's website. New Final Tier 4 engines use DOC/DPF combination.

I know this and that is why I just found it curious that the manual for the 2008 29hp B2920 stated "adopts TIER 4" in additon to "Interim TIER 4". It was just an observation. I never said Kubota is not using DOC/DPF on their new above 26 hp tractors to meet final Tier 4.

I suspect s219 is correct in that it only means the B2920 satisfies some Tier 4.

 

[ruffdog]

People will and do use contaminated DEF fluid. Large contractors use bulk tanks that have been modified to hold DEF. If they use the wrong metal in the fittings, they are contaminating the fluid. One tablespoon of salt will contaminate 5000 gallons of DEF. Putting DEF in containers that held other liquids, will contaminate the DEF.
DEF Contamination Levels

 

[ruffdog]

More DEF info:
Handling Guide

Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF) is a colorless, non-hazardous, and non-flammable chemical. If DEF comes into contact with skin it can simply be washed off with water. DEF is sensitive to chemical impurities and it is essential that it is handled carefully to prevent contamination. DEF is much more likely to be damaged by the materials it touches than to cause damage to equipment.

If DEF is contaminated it may cause the SCR system to malfunction. This means pumps and containers used for DEF must not be used for any other fluids. It is important that tanks, pumps, hoses and nozzles previously used for other products like diesel or lube oil are not used for DEF. The requirements for handling DEF are unique.

The shelf life of DEF is two years if the fluid temperature remains between 12°F (-10°C) and 86°F (30°C). Where DEF is stored outside in bulk tanks or totes then heating and cooling solutions are available to ensure it is kept within the correct temperature range. Cooling is usually achieved by insulation and ventilation. Air conditioning is not required.

The third part of the ISO 2224 standard gives recommendations and requirements for handling, transportation and storing DEF.

Certain stainless steels and various plastic materials are suitable for storing DEF. Carbon steels, copper, copper-containing alloys and zinc-coated steels should not be used. Contact your DEF supplier for a more comprehensive list of equipment and materials that are recommended and not recommended.

 

[ruffdog]

Even CAT has contamination warnings for DEF.
Cat | Understanding Diesel Exhaust Fluid | Caterpillar

 

[sd455dan]

Introducing our Tier IV "mCRD Technology" | Mahindra

If Mahindra can do it, simply and relatively cheaply, I wonder why others can't? It seems that if it was a patented method (probably is) then Mahindra could license their technology to others and a lot of the issues that everyone is complaining about here would go away.

Everyone would be much happier, everyone wins. It seems like the other mfgers would jump at the chance to license the tech.

I too am very glad I got my 3016 last year.

No dpf but it does state Diesel Oxidation Catalyst ... so you do have to buy and use urea , right??

Seems odd they could patent what sounds to be HPCR like the cp3 Bosch system.

Looks like it is basically a Bosch cp3 system like used on the 2003 Dodge pickups equipped with a Cummins and then Mahindra added DOC.

Does look like a way to avoid a plugged dpf. And after reading a little more it does look as if some Mahindras do not require DEF.


If i was buying new i would certainly give Mahindra and any others using this set up a hard look. Mahindra should do well.