Whats wrong with tier 4

[truckdiagnostics]

Ruffdog, DEF is a bit of a pain. As an owner you can do everything right and at -40 the DEF turns into slush in the lines, engine derates and your stuck in northern Canada in the oil fields. And they are in one of those fields/companies that can't take it off and have to make it work! It has been interesting to say the least. How unreliable it has made some of the trucks up there is amazing. I have been trying to stick with criticisms where the "science" doesn't make sense. Try and find ship in and repair all the cracked frozen lines! Gets even better the truck that went down kept the oil fields airport open, so they had to fly the parts to another airport, then transport them. We can debate the science all day long, DPF and DEF is not going to work, last or stay on these vehicles. They will sell them somebody else will take it off, take it off themselves. I have heard people say well it is under warranty the manufacturer should fix it. When DPF and DEF first came out the manufacturers couldn't fix it. An over the road truck sole purpose is to make money, when it is sitting in a dealers shop getting warranty repair it isn't making money.

 

[truckdiagnostics]

No dpf but it does state Diesel Oxidation Catalyst ... so you do have to buy and use urea , right??

Seems odd they could patent what sounds to be HPCR like the cp3 Bosch system.

Looks like it is basically a Bosch cp3 system like used on the 2003 Dodge pickups equipped with a Cummins and then Mahindra added DOC.

Does look like a way to avoid a plugged dpf.
If i was buying new i would certainly give Mahindra and any others using this set up a hard look. Mahindra should do well.

DOC is a basically a catalytic converter Mahindra and other manufacturers have figured out how to meet final tier 4 without DEF or DPF. In a nut shell they are controlling the soot level in the combustion chamber and don't need it. And that makes sense.

 

[sd455dan]

DOC is a basically a catalytic converter Mahindra and other manufacturers have figured out how to meet final tier 4 without DEF or DPF. In a nut shell they are controlling the soot level in the combustion chamber and don't need it. And that makes sense.

I agree- especially since they Are meeting tier 4 on the over 30 hp tractors without DPF or DEF.

It is also nice that the oil in the crankcase is not contaminated with diesel fuel.

Something i heard about the 2012 Dodges with DPFs- my nephew said that the dealer recommended starting out a quart low on an oil change because the regen puts enough diesel into the combustion chamber that by oil change time the engine will be a Full quart over because of raw diesel...YUK
Not a fan of wasting raw diesel to (clean) the environment.

 

[oldpilgrim]

Yes it does freeze. But they install heaters to solve this problem. Had my VW Passat TDI over 2 years, it has DEF in New England with No issues. The only issues I have heard is when the heater fails.

So you're tied to an extension cord when parked in a cold area?

 

[Btown]

So you're tied to an extension cord when parked in a cold area?

The heater is in the DEF tank, controlled by the vehicles electronics. I know this technology is new for some people. They sky is not falling. It works just like the air conditioning in your car, except the computer in your vehicle turns it on and off. The ac in your car the operator turns it on and off. No rocket science here. DEF has been used in Europe over 7 years now. The DEF reduces NOX gases. A lot of manufacturers are using a aggressive EGR to reduce NOX gases. Not the best system, but it works. Don't forget these engines are NOT putting out much horsepower for their size. A lot of these engines are around or over 2.0 liters and put out 40-75 hp. BMW, VW, Chevy, Mercedes and other auto makers are making 140-180 hp from a 2.0 liter engines.

 

[Btown]

People will and do use contaminated DEF fluid. Large contractors use bulk tanks that have been modified to hold DEF. If they use the wrong metal in the fittings, they are contaminating the fluid. One tablespoon of salt will contaminate 5000 gallons of DEF. Putting DEF in containers that held other liquids, will contaminate the DEF. DEF Contamination Levels

Why would you put salt in DEF. heck if I put diesel in a gas engine I would expect problems. Most people will just buy a 1-2.5 gallon bottle of DEF and fill the DEF tank. Some people are just stupid and do stupid things. I remember one guy who bought a 2011 power stroke. He put in his fuel tank about 4 gallons of DEF realized he put it in wrong tank. Filled tank with diesel then drove it. The result was engine failure and contaminated fuel system. About 20k to fix. If he would have dropped the fuel tank and pumped it out of DEF and diesel he would have had no problems. Even if he towed the vehicle to the dealer and paid them to do it it would have been under $1,000. My Passat TDI holds about 5 gallons of DEF and that lasts about 15,000-18,000 miles.

 

[Sysop]

If DEF is so easily contaminated I cannot see how that would be anyone's choice of system for something that lives the filthy life of the average tractor. The more folk describe about it, the more it sounds like it is one of those "awesome results in the lab but total junk in the marketplace" kinda things...

 

[Btown]

If DEF is so easily contaminated I cannot see how that would be anyone's choice of system for something that lives the filthy life of the average tractor. The more folk describe about it, the more it sounds like it is one of those "awesome results in the lab but total junk in the marketplace" kinda things...

Far from junk in marketplace. If u add oil to an engine and u have half a quart left, do you put it in a container that had 90 weight oil in it. Do you put a teaspoon of salt or sand in it? Do you put the cap back on and put it on a shelf to be used later. Hence it is still clean and not contaminated. Common sense goes a long way. Seems a lot of people lack it these days.

 

[truckdiagnostics]

So you're tied to an extension cord when parked in a cold area?

No your not. Here is nice link explaining it.
https://www.cumminsfiltration.com/pdfs/product_lit/americas_brochures/MB10033.pdf
If SCR/dpf new acronym is so wonderful, and DEF is the answer, why are they scrabbling to get rid of it.

 

[Btown]

Based on the attached it would appear Kubota is loosing the DPF also. There is is still after treatment in the DOC, so there is hope. here is link where it came from Kubota Engine America - LATEST NEWS here is the chart <img src="http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/files/owning-operating/421671-whats-wrong-tier-4-a-new-kubota-t4f-engine-models"/>

Wow that is surprising since Kubota states clearly on their website that their DOC/DPF engines are many times cleaner than just the DOC. Bragging one minute how green they are and flip flopping. Oh well.