Electricians: can neutral be anything but white?

[buickanddeere]

Yes, I think 9 wires is gonna be a pain. Thats why I was trying to get down to 7 wires. Not really sure how to incorporate an intermediate box. Box is mounted on shop wall, and outlets are going to go around the shop. Was wanting just 1 run of conduit instead of multiple. So, starting at the box, The first 3 outlets on breaker 1, next 3 on breaker 2, next three on breaker 3, and last 3 on breaker 4. (Thats 1/2 of the shop, gonna be the same thing coming out of the other side of the panel going around the shop). So, I only need 7 wires (or nine if I dont share neutrals) for the first 3 boxes, then I can drop off a hot wire and only pull 6 for the next three boxes. Then I can drop off a hot and a neutral. Next three only need 4 wires, then the final three get 3 wires pulled.

Hope that makes sense.



Your posts just make no sense to me. Not saving money....3/4 cost more. About 50% more. While EMT isnt expensive, and the savings isnt great, it IS saving money.

Not sure what you mean about splurging big on wire. I already have all the 12ga wire I will ever need. Said that several post as back.

And service from meter to panel is already in. We are talking about inside wiring in this post. Not ground rods.

If you can not afford a few runs of 3/4" conduit instead of 1/2" around a shop. It maybe time to re-think your finances .

 

[buickanddeere]

Nothing wrong with a shared neutral IF both hots are on the same breaker.

Aaron Z

WRONG. You will overload the neutral and cause a failure .

 

[aczlan]

WRONG. You will overload the neutral and cause a failure .

How so if they are on a common trip 220v breaker (as required by NEC) and are sized for the breaker's rating?


Aaron Z

 

[buickanddeere]

Every house in my neighborhood built in the 60s shares a neutral wire to the utility room. Any time a household lights are flickering, I know that neighbor is doing their laundry.

Tell us more about that. Sounds like somebody mixed up ground and neutral.

 

[buickanddeere]

How so if they are on a common trip 220v breaker (as required by NEC) and are sized for the breaker's rating?


Aaron Z

If you had said a two pole breaker or a double pole breaker we would have known. "Two breakers" or " another breaker" means trouble .
I keep seeing the words " cost, price and save" but the words" correct, safe, reliable , proper and legal" are not appearing.
Rather than burning the place down, ruining tools and causing personal injury. Hire a pro instead of guessing .

 

[Fawken]

How so if they are on a common trip 220v breaker (as required by NEC) and are sized for the breaker's rating?


Aaron Z

You won't overload the neutral IF as you say they are on a common trip 2 pole breaker. If not, then yes, it can happen. Even still what advantage could this possibly gain? In my bandsaw and mini-fridge example you make troubleshooting that much harder. The guy may never use a laptop out there, but how about a 110V inverter based MIG? Sharing a neutral with a window unit, fan, fridge- or anything with a motor induces noise and power fluctuations onto the other side. Bad practice. Only time I can see it would be in residential with sharing between 1 or 2 wall outlets and some ceiling light fixtures.

 

[MinnesotaEric]

Tell us more about that. Sounds like somebody mixed up ground and neutral.

When I changed out all of the outlets and switches in my house a few years ago and was talking about it at a neighborhood gathering, I was told by one of my neighborhood sparkies that is literally how the houses were wired in my city at the time: Put a load in the basement with a big electric motor and the lights sharing that neutral wire in the rest of the house flicker. As people have had sparky come in and add new outlets or change out electrical service boxes, the problem has been fixed, but many houses are still wired with a shared neutral with on, off and flicker. Thankfully everything is in greenfield and a couple of sparkies have told me they can fish more wire in and fix the issue if it comes up doing some service work.

 

[aczlan]

If you had said a two pole breaker or a double pole breaker we would have known. "Two breakers" or " another breaker" means trouble .
I keep seeing the words " cost, price and save" but the words" correct, safe, reliable , proper and legal" are not appearing.
Rather than burning the place down, ruining tools and causing personal injury. Hire a pro instead of guessing .

I said "the same breaker" I should have said "the same double pole breaker" or something similar.

Taking my wording at face value, putting two wires into the SAME breaker (a single pole 20 amp breaker for example) would make one circuit, which would limit both wires to a combined 20 amps, would not overload the neutral and (if one used a breaker rated for multiple wires terminating into it) would be fine by the NEC.

If one goes by what I meant (and what the NEC requires for two separate circuits) ie: using a two pole common trip 20 amp breaker, you will also not overload the neutral, it will also be allowable under the NEC and it will also be safe.


Aaron Z

 

[aczlan]

You won't overload the neutral IF as you say they are on a common trip 2 pole breaker. If not, then yes, it can happen. Even still what advantage could this possibly gain? In my bandsaw and mini-fridge example you make troubleshooting that much harder. The guy may never use a laptop out there, but how about a 110V inverter based MIG? Sharing a neutral with a window unit, fan, fridge- or anything with a motor induces noise and power fluctuations onto the other side. Bad practice. Only time I can see it would be in residential with sharing between 1 or 2 wall outlets and some ceiling light fixtures.

I wonder about that. If you are below the rated load for the wires/breaker, the voltage should not fluctuate.
On EMF, how much difference is there between having the neutral shared on the circuit and where it is shared back at the panel box?

Aaron Z

 

[Fawken]

I wonder about that. If you are below the rated load for the wires/breaker, the voltage should not fluctuate.
On EMF, how much difference is there between having the neutral shared on the circuit and where it is shared back at the panel box?

Aaron Z

It makes a difference. Most of my experience with EMI is in data cabling. An AC circuit is noisy by default. I would believe that a lot of induced noise is dissipated at the common neutral lug in the breaker box (which on most systems is bonded to true ground). Power flux would be my greater concern. A lot of the equipment we install requires a dedicated circuit, things like Cath Lab and MRI equipment. Usually the first thing the Phillips techs do is try to blame dirty power for every service call they make. I don't think we should give them that opportunity to double-bill the hospital.