VW Clean diesels.... how did they get them so clean?

[IslandTractor]

The bureaucrats are managed by the politicians. The President is the CEO of all the federal agencies.

Yep, that's the way our republic was set up back in 1792. Has worked pretty well for an institution made up of humans.

 

[IslandTractor]

Now now let's all play nice.

Watch out fellas, the boss just walked in!!

 

[Coyote machine]

Now now let's all play nice.

I have been. Take a look at those who insist what I'm saying is incorrect, even though it's backed by facts. MikePA, Mossroad, etc. I thought we're all equal here, no?

 

[davesl708]

Yep, that's the way our republic was set up back in 1792. Has worked pretty well for an institution made up of humans.

I agree. Just we get some bad apples from time to time. Just like any company.

 

[IslandTractor]

I have been. Take a look at those who insist what I'm saying is incorrect, even though it's backed by facts. MikePA, Mossroad, etc. I thought we're all equal here, no?

To be perfectly honest, you guys all have too much testosterone today. You're all arguing semantics. Everyone agrees that VW cheated. The testing VW did for certification with the EPA did not represent real world engine emissions and that was an intentional deception by VW.

To get back to the broader discussion, it seems that Winterkorn, even after resigning, claims he personally did not do anything wrong. We'll see. However that does raise the possibility that the malfeasance was from within one of the diesel engineering groups rather than the executive suite. I still think there will be a number of people who should go to jail. Somebody has to serve time as a warning to product engineers and corporate executives everywhere that lying and cheating will not be tolerated.

And, as much as folks here love to hate the EPA, if the EPA were stronger and better staffed, then the EPA would be able to test these motors themselves under real world conditions just as the UWV did rather than rely on industry to do the testing in limited and controlled environments. That was by the way also the problem with Ford and it's claims of 47mpg for their hybrid. They gamed the system because it was a highly controlled and predictable environment rather than real world. We need regulation and strong regulators because profit driven companies will always cheat if they can.

 

[Coyote machine]

To be perfectly honest, you guys all have too much testosterone today. You're all arguing semantics. Everyone agrees that VW cheated. The testing VW did for certification with the EPA did not represent real world engine emissions and that was an intentional deception by VW.

To get back to the broader discussion, it seems that Winterkorn, even after resigning, claims he personally did not do anything wrong. We'll see. However that does raise the possibility that the malfeasance was from within one of the diesel engineering groups rather than the executive suite. I still think there will be a number of people who should go to jail. Somebody has to serve time as a warning to product engineers and corporate executives everywhere that lying and cheating will not be tolerated.

And, as much as folks here love to hate the EPA, if the EPA were stronger and better staffed, then the EPA would be able to test these motors themselves under real world conditions just as the UWV did rather than rely on industry to do the testing in limited and controlled environments. That was by the way also the problem with Ford and it's claims of 47mpg for their hybrid. They gamed the system because it was a highly controlled and predictable environment rather than real world. We need regulation and strong regulators because profit driven companies will always cheat if they can.

Thanks, Muhammad

 

[Travelover]

......... That was by the way also the problem with Ford and it's claims of 47mpg for their hybrid. They gamed the system because it was a highly controlled and predictable environment rather than real world. ............

Actually in this C-Max case, what Ford did was legal but misleading. The EPA allows you to advertise the same mpg ratings for the same power trains in different vehicle applications, in this case the Fusion hybrid. I agree it was stupid and misleading, but not fraudulent.


Ford C-Max Fuel Economy | EPA Loophole - Consumer Reports News

 

[smstonypoint]

We need regulation and strong regulators because profit driven companies will always cheat if they can.

Quite a sweeping statement. There are folks who lie, cheat, and steal in all lines -- business, government, the ministry, etc. To claim that "profit-driven companies will always cheat if they can" is empty rhetoric.

Here's the abstract of an article that just appeared in the American Journal of Political Science:


This article advances a political theory of regulation that accounts for the choices of regulators and regulated entities when both are governments. Leading theories of regulation assume that governments regulate profit-maximizing firms: Governments set rules, to which firms respond rationally in ways that constrain their behavior. But often the entities that governments regulate are other governments. We argue that government agencies and private firms often face different compliance costs, and that agencies have greater incentives than firms to appeal regulations through political channels. Simultaneously, the typical enforcement instruments that regulators use to influence firm behavior may be less effective against governments. Our empirical subjects are public and private entities compliance with the U.S. Clean Air Act and Safe Drinking Water Act. We find that, compared with private firms, governments violate these laws significantly more frequently and are less likely to be penalized for violations.

When Governments Regulate Governments - Konisky - 2015 - American Journal of Political Science - Wiley Online Library

An ungated version is available at http://mannyteodoro.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/MTeodoro-DKonisky-When-Governments-Regulate-Governments-July-2015.pdf.

A slice from pages 7-8.

The TVA famously resisted the implementation of the National Environmental Policy Act and the Endangered Species Act pursuant to construction of the Tellico Dam. After losing in a series of administrative showdowns and court decisions, the TVA eventually won an exemption for the Tellico Dam through legislative action...... the TVA also resisted implementing the CAA and the Clean Water Act.

The authors point out that the TVA's actions bear out the prediction that "agencies would resist compliance and seek judicial and legislative relief from regulation far more readily than private firms."

Speaking of the TVA, it is the sixth top water polluter in the US, behind the DOD at number four, and the US Government finishes number four among greenhouse emitters according to Who Are the Top Polluters of Air, Water & Climate in the US?

Steve

 

[IslandTractor]

Actually in this C-Max case, what Ford did was legal but misleading. The EPA allows you to advertise the same mpg ratings for the same power trains in different vehicle applications, in this case the Fusion hybrid. I agree it was stupid and misleading, but not fraudulent. Ford C-Max Fuel Economy | EPA Loophole - Consumer Reports News

I agree but even the Fusion doesn't really get those numbers. They gamed the test. Perhaps not illegally like VW but clearly got an unrealistic EPA MOG rating that no one can duplicate. I own a C-Max Energi (after deciding VW TDI was too expensive to maintain). Love the CMax but it gets an honest 40-42 MPG in hybrid mode.

 

[IslandTractor]

Quite a sweeping statement. There are folks who lie, cheat, and steal in all lines -- business, government, the ministry, etc. To claim that "profit-driven companies will always cheat if they can" is empty rhetoric.

Note, I didn't say they were the only ones to cheat. When government agencies cheat we can obtain the truth via freedom of information and punish them with our ballots. If we didn't have an EPA there would be no one to hold big companies responsible. Their PR departments would overwhelm any whistleblower or journalist and their legal department would stymie any fact finding.

Sure others cheat but you go after the big fish first.