How many carry extra magazine concealed carry.

azranger · Nov 25, 2015

k0ua said:
Richard keep in mind you are referencing your military experience but the civilian experience and equipment is much different. The old 1911 .45 you carried in Viet Nam was likely an old WWII era pistol, and while those pistols were pretty functional, they sure lacked a lot in the accuracy department due to their extremely sloppy fit. A good Les Bair and many other custom .45's can print a 1 inch group at 50 yards. Even many of the newer off the rack guns can do 2 inches at 25 yards. So the design CAN be accurate, it just depends on how they are made. As for your Barretta, yes it was a more accurate gun out of the box in its military trim, and can be hand fitted for even more accuracy.

Now on to the modern ammo. Of course the military is ordinarily limited to FMJ ammo so if that is the way it has to be, I would rather have a 230 grain .451 bullet to fling at my enemies than a 115 grain .355 bullet. Hence the .45's reputation as a better manstopper by far.

But us civilians can have ammo not approved under the Geneva convention. And defensive ammo has all gotten better even in the last 10 years and is under constant development. While some might not agree, the 9MM with the proper ammo is an effective manstopper. In fact the FBI is now transitioning their agents back to the 9MM from the .40 S&W. This represents a full circle from the 9mm back in the 80's to the 10MM after the disastrous 1986 Miami shootout to the .40S&W when the 10MM proved too much for most agents to handle (the whole reason for the creation of the .40&W) and now back to the 9MM. Yes the new ammunition is that good.

The 9MM is now an effective manstopper with the right ammunition, offers much less recoil, meaning that follow up shots are much quicker, and carries more ammo in a given magazine size.

The 9mm is an effective man stopper, but one reason many dept. went to 40's , is because the 9mm has a tendency to go through someone and hit someone else, The 40 does'nt. The 9mm will penatrate car doors, the 40 has a harder time.

jeff9366 · Nov 25, 2015

kenmac said:
I don't think we'll ever see the day the US military pulls the M16 , or their service weapon (side arm) for a revolver

In 1953 NATO agreed to adopt USA developed 7.62 X 51mm round for member countries. This is mostly a NATO machine gun cartridge today.

In 1980 NATO agreed to adopt .223 as a co-equal standard rifle round, over general European objections. In exchange the USA agreed to standardize 9mm Luger for pistol caliber weapons within NATO.

The Beretta M5 was adopted by USA Defense Department in 1985.

ovrszd · Nov 25, 2015

k0ua said:
Richard keep in mind you are referencing your military experience but the civilian experience and equipment is much different. The old 1911 .45 you carried in Viet Nam was likely an old WWII era pistol, and while those pistols were pretty functional, they sure lacked a lot in the accuracy department due to their extremely sloppy fit. A good Les Bair and many other custom .45's can print a 1 inch group at 50 yards. Even many of the newer off the rack guns can do 2 inches at 25 yards. So the design CAN be accurate, it just depends on how they are made. As for your Barretta, yes it was a more accurate gun out of the box in its military trim, and can be hand fitted for even more accuracy.

Now on to the modern ammo. Of course the military is ordinarily limited to FMJ ammo so if that is the way it has to be, I would rather have a 230 grain .451 bullet to fling at my enemies than a 115 grain .355 bullet. Hence the .45's reputation as a better manstopper by far.

But us civilians can have ammo not approved under the Geneva convention. And defensive ammo has all gotten better even in the last 10 years and is under constant development. While some might not agree, the 9MM with the proper ammo is an effective manstopper. In fact the FBI is now transitioning their agents back to the 9MM from the .40 S&W. This represents a full circle from the 9mm back in the 80's to the 10MM after the disastrous 1986 Miami shootout to the .40S&W when the 10MM proved too much for most agents to handle (the whole reason for the creation of the .40&W) and now back to the 9MM. Yes the new ammunition is that good.

The 9MM is now an effective manstopper with the right ammunition, offers much less recoil, meaning that follow up shots are much quicker, and carries more ammo in a given magazine size.

Thank you for being gentle my friend. My views are definitely tilted. I don't recall ever handling a military .45 that could print a plate sized group at 50yds. Actually our range fires were conducted on a man sized figure at 25yds.

Love these discussions. Opinions are based on personal experience. And so far in this discussion everyone has been tolerant.

ovrszd · Nov 25, 2015

jeff9366 said:
When NATO agreed to adopt .223 as the standard rifle round, over general European objections, the USA agreed to standardize on 9mm Luger for pistol caliber weapons within NATO.

Good stuff that few know.

PSEbowhunter · Nov 25, 2015

azranger said:
The 9mm is an effective man stopper, but one reason many dept. went to 40's , is because the 9mm has a tendency to go through someone and hit someone else, The 40 does'nt. The 9mm will penatrate car doors, the 40 has a harder time.

This may be true with some of the older ammo but current ballistics prove otherwise. The current LEO ammo (also available in the civilian market) runs with a bonded core to penetrate materials but is designed to expand and disperse it's kinetic energy in tissue.

I have personally watched multiple rounds, from various calibers, including pistol, rifle, and shot gun be tested in certified ballistic gelatin. (an awesome opportunity if you ever get a chance). The testing included using barriers as well from denim to bullet resistant glass.

Anyhow, both 9mm and .40 cal had almost identical penetration, wound channels, and expansion. Without using a micrometer i could not tell the difference between the two side by side.

On a side note i also had a great discussion with the man that designed the most current federal .308 Leo sniper round. On an indoor range at about 25 yds i watched him put that round through a level 2 vest, heavy denim, and bank glass into the gel with about 12" of penetration great expansion and almost complete weight retention. The same round was fired open air, no barriers from the same distance and same rifle with a penetration of 16-18".

kenmac · Nov 25, 2015

I use to carry a 45. I still have it ,but I to have switched to a 9mm. Lighter to carry even with more ammo

Since the topic has also included ammo .. How many use +P ammo instead of standard ammo..I use 147 grain +p

coobie · Nov 25, 2015

kenmac said:
I use to carry a 45. I still have it ,but I to have switched to a 9mm. Lighter to carry even with more ammo

Since the topic has also included ammo .. How many use +P ammo instead of standard ammo..I use 147 grain +p

+P+ ammo here.9mm Winchester ranger 127 grain SXT.

k0ua · Nov 25, 2015

ovrszd said:
Thank you for being gentle my friend. My views are definitely tilted. I don't recall ever handling a military .45 that could print a plate sized group at 50yds. Actually our range fires were conducted on a man sized figure at 25yds.

Love these discussions. Opinions are based on personal experience. And so far in this discussion everyone has been tolerant.

If I could keep even a 3 shot group on a pie plate at 50 yards with a machine rest with an old Military 1911 .45acp, that would be an exceptional one indeed. Most of them I have seen we called them "chicken callers". Meaning you could shake them and the barrell to slide and slide to frame fit was so loose and they rattled so badly you could use them to "call chickens" in to eat their corn:laughing:

Another thing I always hated about a military .45 is the lack of a beavertail grip safety. If you get a high grip as you should to mitigate the recoil and muzzle flip of GI hardball the dang hammer would always take a piece out of the web of my hand by trapping it between the end of the hammer spur and that near worthless little extension on the grip safety. Modern versions of the 1911 all have a nice "beavertail" grip safety that prevents this and allows a nice high grip.

Here is my .45 1911. It started life as a Springfield armory, but has had a lot of work and parts added to it.

azranger · Nov 25, 2015

k0ua said:
If I could keep even a 3 shot group on a pie plate at 50 yards with a machine rest with an old Military 1911 .45acp, that would be an exceptional one indeed. Most of them I have seen we called them "chicken callers". Meaning you could shake them and the barrell to slide and slide to frame fit was so loose and they rattled so badly you could use them to "call chickens" in to eat their corn:laughing:

Another thing I always hated about a military .45 is the lack of a beavertail grip safety. If you get a high grip as you should to mitigate the recoil and muzzle flip of GI hardball the dang hammer would always take a piece out of the web of my hand by trapping it between the end of the hammer spur and that near worthless little extension on the grip safety. Modern versions of the 1911 all have a nice "beavertail" grip safety that prevents this and allows a nice high grip.

Here is my .45 1911. It started life as a Springfield armory, but has had a lot of work and parts added to it.

View attachment 448438 View attachment 448439 View attachment 448440 View attachment 448441 View attachment 448442 View attachment 448443

I have the same gun in 6" . Springfield 45 super longslide v16.. It will shoot 45 supers and 45 acp

azranger · Nov 25, 2015

k0ua said:
If I could keep even a 3 shot group on a pie plate at 50 yards with a machine rest with an old Military 1911 .45acp, that would be an exceptional one indeed. Most of them I have seen we called them "chicken callers". Meaning you could shake them and the barrell to slide and slide to frame fit was so loose and they rattled so badly you could use them to "call chickens" in to eat their corn:laughing:

Another thing I always hated about a military .45 is the lack of a beavertail grip safety. If you get a high grip as you should to mitigate the recoil and muzzle flip of GI hardball the dang hammer would always take a piece out of the web of my hand by trapping it between the end of the hammer spur and that near worthless little extension on the grip safety. Modern versions of the 1911 all have a nice "beavertail" grip safety that prevents this and allows a nice high grip.

Here is my .45 1911. It started life as a Springfield armory, but has had a lot of work and parts added to it.

View attachment 448438 View attachment 448439 View attachment 448440 View attachment 448441 View attachment 448442 View attachment 448443