Solar power & Wind Power for residental use

[JCByrd24]

My point is it is fact it will pay for itself not opinion, it's simple math. Some places will take longer than others but it's a pretty good idea anywhere unless you have free power. I have a grid tied system so I have no less comfort or convenience than you, also fact. I can run my welder, air compressor, whatever without impact. Prices on solar have drastically been reduced in your 27 years of "experience" and I would almost guarantee technology has changed as well.

Last November my already high electric prices of around $0.15/kWhr were slated to go up by 25%. In December something happened at the last minute and the contract rate for the year dropped a couple percent. This year they're going down again. But I'm sure glad I have my solar system running now even though my payback has been extended (for the time being), because I have no doubt, at some point, when some agenda has been met, prices will go up again, and not a couple percent at a time. I was tired of that being out of my control and there was actually something I could do about it.

 

[truckdiagnostics]

Like I said some will disagree, it comes down to what you consider as comfort, convenience, necessity or just preference. Not sure what you would consider "old" technology, from what I see most folks are using the exact same stuff we use offshore. Also it creating a positive industry depends to whom you are talking to about the subject. Unless there are some great advances in the technology and manufacturing, you would hard pressed to convince me it would pay for itself.[/QUOTe
Times two

 

[katoomed00]

So you are telling me that you me that you can run your welding machine, air compressor, electric home AC, electric hot water heater, electric cooktop and oven, electric dryer, electric water well all at the same time? If so you must have a **** of an array, running 1 or 2 at a time is not what I would consider convenience. and what to you use with no sun and no batteries or capacitors?

 

[JCByrd24]

Yes I can and I do, I have 200A electrical service to my house. If you don't understand what a grid-tied system is then you have no business posting in this thread. FYI, it means I draw from the grid when I need to and send power out when I'm producing more than using. All controlled by one of those new pieces of technology I was referring to.

 

[katoomed00]

Man you are confusing me, LOL, my initial comment was never about a grid tied setup. You are talking about as you call it "old" technology, that has been around for along time, surely not as common as it is now. The only new thing that is being done now is (if you live like a hermit) if your array is producing enough electricity you can sell some back.

 

[ironnut]

I have a 3 kw grid tie system (you get to use the power company as a battery). It would appear that it will generate ~500 kw-hr per month on average here in southwest Idaho. Our average monthly use is a 1000 kw-hrs. At $0.10/kw/hr it will save us $600/yr. The panels and micro inverters cost just over $6000. Doing a very simplistic payback calculation the pay back is $6000/$600 per year = 10 years. The system should last at least 20 years. With the tax credits and incentives it will be considerably shorter than 10 years. Yes my $6000 could be drawing 1% interest in a CD so the pay back is perhaps a bit longer. The original poster was asking for comments from folks with experience with wind and solar power. One of the new technologies is the micro inverter which greatly simplifies installation and connecting to the gird. Also the improved efficiency and reliability of the charge controllers, inverters, controllers, and the solar panels them selves. In the wind power realm it would seem to be the scaling factor and aerodynamics. Solar panels nor wind turbines, by themselves, are not a solution for the replacement of base load generation systems. Solar panels do lend themselves fairly well in offsetting peak loads especially in the summer time which is one of the reasons power companies sometimes actually embrace them, instead of merely tolerating them. As to living off grid using solar panels, it is doable even to the point of minimal inconvenience. The economics of it vary with the situation. My friend was looking at over $30,000 to be connected to the grid. For far less than $30,000 he has electrical power, solar panels, charge controllers, inverters, back-up generator and batteries. The inverters supply both 110 and 220 volts, he can even run his Miller suitcase welder, tig, mig, stick 150+ amps welding current. Even counting the eventual battery replacement his cost for power is far less then the $30,000 plus $0.10 per kw-hr that the grid system would have cost him, certainly in his lifetime. I look at the grid tie solar panel system as an investment. With the tax incentives, its return is a lot better than what I have been getting on my CDs, besides it was a fun project, installing them and then the satisfaction of watching the kw-hrs go a different direction.

gordon

 

[JCByrd24]

Man you are confusing me, LOL, my initial comment was never about a grid tied setup. You are talking about as you call it "old" technology, that has been around for along time, surely not as common as it is now. The only new thing that is being done now is (if you live like a hermit) if your array is producing enough electricity you can sell some back.

I'm not sure what is so confusing. I made it very clear I was talking about grid-tied. This thread is about residential solar, of which a grid-tied is likely the most common and certainly the cheapest and has zero of the disadvantages you mention. As such, your original input was not legitimate to this thread yet you presented it as fact based on your 27 years of experience, without even mentioning that you weren't talking about grid-tied. My guess is because based on post #93 you did not know what grid-tied was.

I simply don't know what you mean about living like a hermit. I matched my array size to my current annual use. It covers all of it. Welding, water heating, refrigerating, lights, you name it. I don't have electric resistance heat, but my house and lifestyle is quite normal. During the summer months I produce about double what I use and vice versa in the winter. My previous electric bill was about $65 in the summer and $95 in the winter. It's now the minimum service fee of $11 for the privilege of being hooked to the grid. I may have a small bill by March-April but by May I'll be banking power again.

 

[NorTracNY]

Wow interesting thread. Purchasing a solar system will come down to your personal situation. Anyone that talks about subsidies and whether something is truely "green" really is ignoring the reality of our convoluted economy with government intervention. I have a PV system that was a steal because of the silly interference of the government. I have a guarenteed rate of return that any investor would jump at. I thank all the tax payers in my state and country when they ask about my system. BUT, if anyone thinks the real cost of gas is just what they pay at the pump, then they are delusional. If anyone thinks that nuclear energy is "cheap" they don't understand the cost of storing something dangerous for 50,000 years. If they think of hydro-electric as free and not hurting anything, they don't know what Niagara Falls looked like before the generators.

I have nothing against any of these forms of energy. I do believe that diversity is important. Adding solar to existing coal burning plants actually makes sense. The solar produces peak energy where as the plant needs to be built for maximum usage which comes in the middle of the day. Let's not attack one source just because it isn't green, it isn't currently as cheap as X, or it can't do Y. Technology advances should be encouraged and we should DEFINITELY not assume we pay the real cost of any of these when we buy them for our personal usage.

And again, thank you for my PV system.

 

[Egon]

In reference to hydro power effects look at the Nile Delta.

 

[3930dave]

Give 3 people $10,000 each - one will put it in the bank, one will spend it on a classic car, the last will go on a trip. Personally, I wouldn't waste time trying to convince anyone that they should have done otherwise.

Many decisions aren't made on #'s alone. Personal outlook and philosophy is a big factor - blend your own with the #'s, and the trends playing out.

For many (but not all) areas of the continent, grid prices have jumped substantially in the last 25 years. Where I live, it's at least doubled in the last decade. I expect that trend will continue.

Historical Electricity Prices | OEB

Over the same 25 years, the cost of generating alternative energy has come down significantly, and the systems have become much more sophisticated, capable, and reliable. And, what matters to a lot of people, turnkey.

I think that over time, people will come to look at generating their own power in the same manner as people regard owning personal property today - some people don't want the hassle and up-front expense, while many people do see the long-term value.

For an economics lesson, I often look at what the big players are doing:

Walmart to buy 58% of output of large new wind facility in Texas - Fortune

Green PR and window-dressing aside, there's really only one reason for what Walmart is doing. As summed up in the last paragraph, it's all about the bottom line.

Rgds, D.