MossRoad
Super Moderator
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- South Bend, Indiana (near)
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- Power Trac PT425 2001 Model Year
Yes, try having a conversation VS insulting them by stating they failed college.
Solar power & Wind Power for residental use
- Thread starter Terry1040
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Yes, try having a conversation VS insulting them by stating they failed college.
buickanddeere
Super Member
How is it that some people just won't accept the laws of physics ? Wanting a better earth and all is a noble goal but the best of intentions, good will and hopes. They won't make the sun shine 24/7, make room temperature super conductors or add new elements to the periodic table. To make higher energy density batteries possible.
Sometimes it's easier to shoot the messenger.
Sometimes it's easier to shoot the messenger.
buickanddeere
Super Member
Some people don't realize that peer pressure can't change the laws of physics.
We installed a 25KW solar grid tied system about 3 years ago on our home (now a rental home). Here is our usage for the last 12 months. We couldn't be happier. We paid less than $200 last year for our electric bill, most of which was the monthly service fees.
MossRoad
Super Moderator
- Joined
- Aug 31, 2001
- Messages
- 58,104
- Location
- South Bend, Indiana (near)
- Tractor
- Power Trac PT425 2001 Model Year
MossRoad
Super Moderator
- Joined
- Aug 31, 2001
- Messages
- 58,104
- Location
- South Bend, Indiana (near)
- Tractor
- Power Trac PT425 2001 Model Year
You seem to be the only one talking physics when the subject is tax subsidies, cost, and return on investment. Pretty much everyone in this discussion agrees that when the wind doesn't blow or the sun doesn't shine, wind turbines don't turn and solar panels don't produce. That's why they have grid-tied systems. They consume the power generated on-site and sell the excess back to the power company. On days when they aren't generating more than they need, they draw from and pay for electricity from the power company. And everyone acknowledges that solar and wind wouldn't be viable without tax incentives at present. No one is saying its free power from nothing. What they are saying is that for X dollars they invest over Y years they are getting Z in return. And Z turns out to be more than X at the end of Y. Therefore, it costs them less over the time period Y, which is a great thing for them. It also pollutes less. Which is a great benefit to all of us.
If you want to talk tax policy, go over to the friendly politics forum, as that's where the discussion leads... politics.
buickanddeere
Super Member
Net metering is not without it's drawbacks for the utility company. The utility is now subsidizing those net systems via every other electrical user's monthly utility bill . There is no free lunch, somebody has to pay for that spinning reserve.
Speaking of paying. My utility rate has risen from 7 cents/kwhr flat rate to 18 cents/Kw/hr if we load shift 3/4 of our usage to the lowest rates at night. All this to subsidize wind, solar and natural gas turbines . Last year 20% of the utility bill paid for 3% of the "green" power generated. Then there is the $$$ our small 12,000-18,000Mw utility pays green producers to shutdown during surpluses. And another billion to pay NY and Michigan to take surplus power.
Hydro Electric Sites are bypassing water around the turbines nights and weekends as it's cheaper than having to pay a negative rate to generate electricity while wind, solar and NG is being paid subsidized rates at the same moment.
In my position it has become rather wearying to have the general public and politicians supported by the general public. Telling us how clean wind and solar can operate the country. With how a Tesla battery pack can operate a building over night and on days without sun or wind. The Tesla supporters are either shocked or won't believe the Tesla battery alone is not enough, that it doesn't plug into the wall outlet as is. Start talking charger, inverter, transfer switch and labour and they become bewildered, disbelieve or become angry. Ask who pays the $25,000 and the talk starts about how the utility or the " government" should be paying the $25,000. Who is the utility and the government ?
Then there are the home tinkerers who think that a 400W wind turbine 30ft in the air, a Kw of PV cells and a set of golf cart batteries will operate the typical house and electric car for a thousand bucks.........
There are those who trot out the line about " next generation solar cells" or next generation batteries. After watching Star Trek, people are certain that power supplies seen on phasers could be powering all vehicles and machines.
There is only so much power density in a pound of lead, lithium, sodium or NiCi. There are people certain that with enough research that the equivalent of " storing 10 gallons of water in a 1 gallon pail" is possible.
There is also a limit to how quickly the battery can be charged or discharged without rapid failure, explosion or fire. Internal resistance, thermal dissipation and I2R losses can not be reduced to negligible levels.
The general public is also unaware how toxic the manufacturing and disposal process regarding PV cells and batteries. The bulk of PV production today is in the 3rd world where the EPA does not exist. Moving EPA regulated production from the western countries may make a NIMBY's yard cleaner yet they don't care or know about a 3rd world backyard.
The sheer number of non technical people, even technical people outside the electrical business. Who sincerely believe it can all be rainbows, lollipops and Unicorns is disconcerning. If the nasty greedy Big Oil/Energy Companies quit purchasing 200mpg carburators and put up a few acres of PV cells. Tell them otherwise and the response is disbelief , disappointment and/or anger.
Speaking of paying. My utility rate has risen from 7 cents/kwhr flat rate to 18 cents/Kw/hr if we load shift 3/4 of our usage to the lowest rates at night. All this to subsidize wind, solar and natural gas turbines . Last year 20% of the utility bill paid for 3% of the "green" power generated. Then there is the $$$ our small 12,000-18,000Mw utility pays green producers to shutdown during surpluses. And another billion to pay NY and Michigan to take surplus power.
Hydro Electric Sites are bypassing water around the turbines nights and weekends as it's cheaper than having to pay a negative rate to generate electricity while wind, solar and NG is being paid subsidized rates at the same moment.
In my position it has become rather wearying to have the general public and politicians supported by the general public. Telling us how clean wind and solar can operate the country. With how a Tesla battery pack can operate a building over night and on days without sun or wind. The Tesla supporters are either shocked or won't believe the Tesla battery alone is not enough, that it doesn't plug into the wall outlet as is. Start talking charger, inverter, transfer switch and labour and they become bewildered, disbelieve or become angry. Ask who pays the $25,000 and the talk starts about how the utility or the " government" should be paying the $25,000. Who is the utility and the government ?
Then there are the home tinkerers who think that a 400W wind turbine 30ft in the air, a Kw of PV cells and a set of golf cart batteries will operate the typical house and electric car for a thousand bucks.........
There are those who trot out the line about " next generation solar cells" or next generation batteries. After watching Star Trek, people are certain that power supplies seen on phasers could be powering all vehicles and machines.
There is only so much power density in a pound of lead, lithium, sodium or NiCi. There are people certain that with enough research that the equivalent of " storing 10 gallons of water in a 1 gallon pail" is possible.
There is also a limit to how quickly the battery can be charged or discharged without rapid failure, explosion or fire. Internal resistance, thermal dissipation and I2R losses can not be reduced to negligible levels.
The general public is also unaware how toxic the manufacturing and disposal process regarding PV cells and batteries. The bulk of PV production today is in the 3rd world where the EPA does not exist. Moving EPA regulated production from the western countries may make a NIMBY's yard cleaner yet they don't care or know about a 3rd world backyard.
The sheer number of non technical people, even technical people outside the electrical business. Who sincerely believe it can all be rainbows, lollipops and Unicorns is disconcerning. If the nasty greedy Big Oil/Energy Companies quit purchasing 200mpg carburators and put up a few acres of PV cells. Tell them otherwise and the response is disbelief , disappointment and/or anger.
Redneck in training
Elite Member
Complaining about toxicity of production of in example batteries or solar cells is pointless unless you complain about toxicity of production of in example cars, cement, HC based fuels and many other products.
In fact solar cells are way less toxic over their life than many other sources of energy. IC engines being one of the worst.
The march toward non hydrocarbon energy generation is inevitable.
Iowa produces 30% energy from wind. Mid American energy (local utility and one of two large energy generators in Iowa) is the largest operator of wind generators in the state. It will produce 50% of their energy from wind by the end of 2016. The utility reported that wind will be the cheapest source of energy over next 30 years. Since they own them the generators are 100% dispatchable. It gives them greater flexibility than in example coal burning plant. I have never heard that MAE had to pay other generators for not producing energy.
I am a shareholder in our local electric cooperative. Based on annual report the cost of infrastructure per customer about is about $70/month. There are many customers that have electric bill less than $80/month including energy charge. Those are in fact subsidized by those who use more energy. Should the utility charge them because they heat with wood?
In fact solar cells are way less toxic over their life than many other sources of energy. IC engines being one of the worst.
The march toward non hydrocarbon energy generation is inevitable.
Iowa produces 30% energy from wind. Mid American energy (local utility and one of two large energy generators in Iowa) is the largest operator of wind generators in the state. It will produce 50% of their energy from wind by the end of 2016. The utility reported that wind will be the cheapest source of energy over next 30 years. Since they own them the generators are 100% dispatchable. It gives them greater flexibility than in example coal burning plant. I have never heard that MAE had to pay other generators for not producing energy.
I am a shareholder in our local electric cooperative. Based on annual report the cost of infrastructure per customer about is about $70/month. There are many customers that have electric bill less than $80/month including energy charge. Those are in fact subsidized by those who use more energy. Should the utility charge them because they heat with wood?
Egon
Epic Contributor
Hmmm.
Spinning reserve. It's always there for when a conventional source goes down which they do.
Periodic table. It'being added to and even has slots for new arrivals.
10 into 1 is rather interesting. Just think about all those places out there that we don't see into. It's happening there.
And cost. That is a real mess. However, just on basics, the solar & wind do pay out. The grid makes varying sources viable and that reserve spinning herring makes for good drivel!
Spinning reserve. It's always there for when a conventional source goes down which they do.
Periodic table. It'being added to and even has slots for new arrivals.
10 into 1 is rather interesting. Just think about all those places out there that we don't see into. It's happening there.
And cost. That is a real mess. However, just on basics, the solar & wind do pay out. The grid makes varying sources viable and that reserve spinning herring makes for good drivel!
Egon
Epic Contributor
Hmmm.
Spinning reserve. It's always there for when a conventional source goes down which they do.
Periodic table. It'being added to and even has slots for new arrivals.
10 into 1 is rather interesting. Just think about all those places out there that we don't see into. It's happening there.
And cost. That is a real mess. However, just on basics, the solar & wind do pay out. The grid makes varying sources viable and that reserve spinning herring makes for good drivel!
Spinning reserve. It's always there for when a conventional source goes down which they do.
Periodic table. It'being added to and even has slots for new arrivals.
10 into 1 is rather interesting. Just think about all those places out there that we don't see into. It's happening there.
And cost. That is a real mess. However, just on basics, the solar & wind do pay out. The grid makes varying sources viable and that reserve spinning herring makes for good drivel!
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