Tractor tipping point

[Deezl Smoke]

If your tractor has a ROPS, wear your seat belt.

You are right to be very concerned on hills of any degree or angle. If you have only rear drive, then you have only rear brakes. If you have mfwd, and are in rear only drive, then you still only have rear brakes. This becomes much more evident with a loader.

The maths involved with the actual tipping point and any tractor will involve not only the cog, but the location of the front axle pivot, both length from the rear tire contact with the surface, and the height upward from the surface.

If you are running an old tractor without rops, and are not experienced, or even if you are, and working on hills, always tell someone where you will be and when you will be there. If possible, have someone there with you. More people are found dead under a tractor or in the bottom of a ravine, but only after several hours had past since they were supposed to be home for dinner.

 

[RaydaKub]

I understand better the cog with an implement on uphill or downhill how it can affect it but I do have a question: lets take a backhoe with outriggers. (Not saying this is proper operation but best way to ask my question.) You lower the downhill outrigger where it is say 6 inches off the ground. Now do you use the low side tire to determine the cog or do you use the outrigger to determine it? Is the outrigger not of benefit to help stop a rollover? Or would running out the uphill outrigger the same amount be of greater value?

The center of gravity hasn't really moved much, but what the outrigger did, same as the boom on the excavator, is to move the fulcrum away from the down hill side track or wheel, out to the end of the outrigger. The backhoe would have to tip far enough to lift the entire tractor off the ground. The fulcrum could be drawn in a straight line from the end of the outrigger to the outside of the front bucket (assuming it is on the ground). The center of gravity would have to cross this line in order to cause a roll.

Again, it isn't the weight of the outrigger, it is the leverage that is beneficial. The weight of the outrigger is probably negligible compared to the whole backhoe.

Side mount cutters bolted to the frame would probably offer some leverage in a crisis. A 3ph mounted one, not so much. There are very few tractors that offer power down on the 3ph, so it could just raise up (as well as maybe swing side to side uphill).

 

[PJ The Kid]

There are alot of variables, even on similar tractors. Do you have a front loader? Do you have fluid filled tires? What type of implements are you running? I would look into ROPS for that specific model if not installed already. I come from a little different world where I operate equipment big enough a side mount, or a sickle bar or disc mower isn't beefy enough if the rig starts to go it would fold it like wire.

 

[whis]

there is no magic number for how much of a slope you can run on. a sickle mower or disc mower will not provide any help from a roll over, they have a pivot point. best advice get some seat time before getting on a slope

 

[FTG-05]

I live on top of hill. Rollovers are the biggest thing I fear when I'm on my hill, especially when I'm bushogging, even though I go straight up and straight down.

Things I've done to prevent rolling over:

- Filled all four tires. Yea, only the rear ones help preventing rollovers, but filling the fronts aided in front traction going up my hill.
- Widened the rear tires as far as possible. Worth every penny of the $150 it cost me.
- Added lead, steel and concrete wheel weights to the rear tires and wheels; added 500 lbs.
- Added steel and concrete weights to the torque tubes of the FEL. About 80 lbs total for both of them; not a lot but it's down low and every bit helps.
- Added rail "fishplates" to the front bumper. Some of them are higher than the CG but most are below where I think the CG is.

Finally, I did roll over my RTV this last Sunday. Running a sidehill (normal trail was blocked) and hit a fallen (and hidden log). The front wheel bounced and my foot hit the accelerator; the rear bounced and over she went in a slow motion roll over. Tipped her back over and towed her home. Left it for two days and it started up fine. A bullet dodged there.

 

[4570Man]

I find my B7200 with turfs set to the widest position to be a lot more stable on hills than my larger tractors with a loader. The finish mower also helps a lot since it's mounted low. My F-2560 is the most stable going across hills, but it has terrible traction going up hills. I've never met a hill the B7200 wouldn't climb. I've rode up hills on 2 wheels with the finish mower preventing a rollover. The F-2560 gives up pretty fast.

 

[Tractor Seabee]

Experience is the best teacher as long as you stay on the safe side. The little SCUTs like my BX are especially vulnerable even though they have a low CG due to small tires. The wheel spacing is pretty narrow which compounds the situation and the tires are so small loading with fluid is negligible. I use suitcase weights w/custom fabbed mounting brackets for both front and back. There have been a lot of posts here on turning over SCUTS. My dentist has a B 2--- which is not much bigger and he has turned it over 3 times in 250 hours. I accused him of being a hot rodder. I have 1500 on my BX and have never turned it over and most of my work is on slopes moving logs and brush loads at FEL max. I spent a lot of time experimenting with how to best work on slopes. I have had my BX on one wheel several times. For and old man my reflexes and situational awareness are pretty good. My head is moving and looking at the terrain and my tractor's reactions.

To add to the discussion on ballast weight on upper or lower side; I did a lot of experimenting with the back hoe mounted and using it as a moving ballast. I found my maximum stability at a mid boom angle W/bucket curled back and hoe turned to the up hill side. Most of the theory expounded is beyond my comprehension so I go with my gut. Worked do far.

I put a lot of my success on moving slow and slower!!

Ron

 

[PatrickS2222]

Hi Julian, and welcome to TBN.
I must say I'm quite impressed with your choice of tractor - you should be happy with it, and with some experience will be driving it with steadily-increasing confidence. :thumbsup: Mine are just a bit older :laughing: But stay within your depth - we certainly don't want any bad news!

I just read this whole thread and agree with the opinions posted. There's a heap of good advice there!
I must add though, IMHO we should use the term "flip" to describe a rearward tip-over and instead refer to a side-tipover as a roll-over ..... or am I just being a bit too precious? :confused2:

The first thing that occurred to me was this one:
One of the things that gets newby's in trouble is failure to alway keep your Front End Loader as low as possible. I have seen so many youtube vid's of newby's running around with a loaded bucket up high. Absolutely never do that. When you load your FEL bucket lower it as much as possible when you are traveling. I have seen dozens of pictures of rollovers pictures here on TBN, and every one of them had the FEL bucket up high. The tell tale sign of a mistake. Keep the shiny side up, and happy tractoring.

A couple of other points of note (all have been mentioned already - there's a mile of experience on this site:
Filling all tyres with water or specific ballast fluid;
Adding wheel-weights and other low-mounted weight for further ballast and stability;
Keeping tyre pressures correct - nothing worse than an unnoticed soft tyre on a hill-side;
The front axle of your tractor (and most others, including all mine) does nothing to prevent a roll-over;
Appropriate gear, adequate engine speed, sensible approach, correct outcome, and easier on the machine as well.
Slower is safer - it's much better to do a little less in a day, and avoid a visit to the hospital or undertaker, still be able to finish it the next day!
Inattention or distraction can very easily and quickly cause a serious accident;
Above all - with implements (especially heavy ones) and loader buckets (especially full ones): Low and slow, Carefully go.

I've been driving tractors since I was 7 years old ..... sheesh that was a long time ago!

Feel free to ask about what you need to know - there are a lot of very helpful people here. :thumbsup:

 

[Deezl Smoke]

Ok, just a side note here. The front axle actually DOES have influence on roll over geometrics. It's a common misconception that because the axle has no springs or stoppers on either side of the pivot, that there is no influence on roll over. The axle's pivot location in relation to the rear wheel ground contact and in relation tot he cog play a roll, and a large enough roll that it can be measured, in preventing or causing a roll over to occur. Some axles are pivoted quite high in relation to the wheelbase length and rear track width, others are pivoted lower.

 

[Creamer]

There are a lot of variables to this. First most likely the tractor will not tip near as easy as you think. Believe most here will tell you they have come out of the seat thinking it was going but it remain upright. Not saying do not be safe, far from it.

You may wish to look at videos on the internet of tractor accidents to get an idea of how far some are pushed before they do roll and they will roll and yes kill.

Some suggestions:
On slopes you are less stable driving sideways, better straight up and down.
Slow is better than fast, a tractor will slower travel over something at high speed that may have bounced crossing and rolled.
Wider wheel spacing is better, check your manual for wheel spacing.
The type of implement you have attached can help make you more stable or less. Wide implements may make you more stable.
Load (even implements) lower are more stable then raised. Of course you must lift them some to transport but if tractor is tipping towards a load, lower it as fast as possible and that may stop the tipping. Say you have heavy load on the rear hitch for front end loader, you drop the load if possible if it tips that direction.
Be sure to keep check on tire air pressure, you do not want a low pressure tire to come off the rim on slope.
Be sure you understand how the brakes work before you get on a slope and you may want to lock so both bake together.
I would suggest you take the tractor only, if it is four wheel drive I would use it and in low gear and slow ground speed with say 15000 rpms so the hydraulics are working pressure and quick response get out there and drive across the different concerns. Begin with one you feel very comfortable with and work up. When you are comfortable at low speed then move up in speed some. Watch you front tires (you will not be able to see rear ones unless in trouble) for lifting off the ground. If that begins to happen-STOP. Land here is mostly level but have had people killed or injured and all the cases I know of were tractors rolling over into ditches (other than accident with auto) or into holes. I really think you will find them much more stable than you think they are. Oh if you have roll bar do wear the seat belt for it should keep you within the roll bar if the tractor rolls. If no roll bar do not wear seat belt. kt

Nice list kthompson. I would add that loads on the rear are more stable than loads on the front because the rear axle is rigid to the tractor whereas most front axles pivot in the middle. When I go on steep sidehills my tractor is much more stable with the loader off and the load on the back tires than the with the loader on because that transfers more weight to the front end.

 

[dieselcrawler]

I deal with slopes every time I'm on my tractors, like this, and worse. This is about 20°, I've side hilled up to about 30°-35°, and I d@mn sure don't like it. But the tractor can do it, and I go as slow as I can in those situations. I can do 45° going up and down, but that's as far as traction will let me go.



I've taken steps to make life safer, and reduce the risk of a rollover. All 4 tires are loaded. Rears are spaced out 4.5" on each side beyond the widest factory settings, with spacers I built.



I also added front ballast, with a 5' cutter on the back, and no loader, the front wheels won't stay on the ground. So I always have the loader on... in addition, I carry a 5' long piece of railroad track in the bucket, for even better front wheel traction. It has tabs welded to it, and a bolt into the bucket side on either end to keep it in place. Last thing you want is that much weight moving around. It's visible here, behind the start of the next step, a full cage ROPS/ FOPS.



I realize that adding weight up high makes a rollover more likely, but in this case, I'll take the payoff of added protection in a rollover and it helps keep brush out of my face in the woods. The factory ROPS was not modified in any way, and I trust my fabrication skills to have added protection due to triangulation of the tubing, and not just added more stuff that might injure me.



What I can't post a picture of is years of offroad driving experience. The seat-of-the-pants-o-meter is calibrated pretty good, and having been on a tractor since I was 8 years old, in trucks since 10, mud trucks and other offroad play toys since my teens, the situational awareness that let's you know when the uphill side is getting 'light', helps keep the rubber on the dirt. Having wheels in the air and dirt coming in the window when the ol truck is laying on its side teaches you something... as does catching a 4wheeler (atv) with your face (it hurts, eating thru a straw for 7 weeks isn't fun). All the advice in the world can't replace that 'knowing' that things are still ok, or yikes, that's sketchy.

Good luck, and be safe. Hope my input was helpful.

 

[Snowback]

Great advice from all above. Please just be very careful on sidehills where there may be divots or ruts. That front axle connection point is easy to pivot around if not paying attention.

I've worn this video out and it may already have been linked above, but I always share it with new friends. Tractors are very safe and stable when operated properly. ie: loader low when moving and whatching for ruts and divots/rotten stumps on sidehills.

Be safe and enjoy your tractor!

 

[brown40]

The 3 point and implement have to be remembered--they also belong "low and slow", and influence how your machine behaves. A backhoe is great ballast--but it raises the CoG of a machine more than a similarly weighted bushhog, box blade, or ballast box does. No implement or a light one (you always need counterweight--whether using it or not) throws your former tipping point out the window. You should have a "go to" implement for your counterweight when you do loader work--compact, heavy and short, preferably. Anything heavy works to add weight to the rear axle and decrease the front axle forces, but the more mass there is above the axle the more counterproductive it is for dynamic situations. If you are working a consistent slope in a set pattern, you can offset the 3 pt to the "high side", and shift the force towards the high tire--of course then if you backtrack, you've shifted the weight downhill. Low and slow.

 

[zzvyb6]

I deal with slopes every time I'm on my tractors, like this, and worse. This is about 20ｰ, I've side hilled up to about 30ｰ-35ｰ, and I d@mn sure don't like it. But the tractor can do it, and I go as slow as I can in those situations. I can do 45ｰ going up and down, but that's as far as traction will let me go.




What I can't post a picture of is years of offroad driving experience. The seat-of-the-pants-o-meter is calibrated pretty good, and having been on a tractor since I was 8 years old, in trucks since 10, mud trucks and other offroad play toys since my teens, the situational awareness that let's you know when the uphill side is getting 'light', helps keep the rubber on the dirt. Having wheels in the air and dirt coming in the window when the ol truck is laying on its side teaches you something... as does catching a 4wheeler (atv) with your face (it hurts, eating thru a straw for 7 weeks isn't fun). All the advice in the world can't replace that 'knowing' that things are still ok, or yikes, that's sketchy.

Good luck, and be safe. Hope my input was helpful.

I think the mods you have made to the ROPS won't help you very much with rollover protection. Pitchover, yes. Without cross bracing, your square frame will matchbox and fold over. In the last thread (not shown here) the rolled tractor's ROPS has been cross braced. It stood up well to the dynamic load. A simple match stick model will show you this.

Actually there are not a lot of VARIABLES to any vehicle rollover. Just a wide range of variable VALUES for these variables (parameters). Side hill angle, total CG height, front and rear track, tire sideforce capability, roll angle and roll velocity pretty much make the call. A few other minor ones, but optimize these and you'll be safe.

You can roll over ANY vehicle, it just takes skill, practise and opportunity.

 

[dirt ditch]

If your tractor has a ROPS, wear your seat belt...If you are running an old tractor without rops, and are not experienced, or even if you are, and working on hills, always tell someone where you will be and when you will be there. If possible, have someone there with you. More people are found dead under a tractor or in the bottom of a ravine, but only after several hours had past since they were supposed to be home for dinner.

This just happened last week. a DOT worker in western Kansas lost his life when the commercial mower he was running rolled over on top of him.
He "was wearing the seat belt when his mower flipped, but the roll-bar was put down."
www.kwch.com - KDOT worker killed in Western Kansas mowing accident

 

[Deezl Smoke]

This just happened last week. a DOT worker in western Kansas lost his life when the commercial mower he was running rolled over on top of him.
He "was wearing the seat belt when his mower flipped, but the roll-bar was put down."
www.kwch.com - KDOT worker killed in Western Kansas mowing accident

Always sad to hear these stories. But ya, even the videos put out by the manufacturers will state to not wear the seat belt without the rops. Seems many of the stories are of either the young and inexperienced, or the old and complacent. But it will happen when one least expects it. I know our state highway mowers are some really good operators. They can mow right up to the field crop and not touch one blade of the crop yet get every spear of any weed. But man do they run on some steep, unknown slopes by the over passes. I know I would never do it. Hats off to them.

 

[Turbys_1700]

I've run tractors all my life. Back in the 60's we never thought of roll overs and the inherent danger associated with tractors. Most of our property was rolling but nothing like what you see in the mountains. We had to be careful on the terraces and ditches in our fields but other than that they we were fairly flat. When I bought my FORD 4610 SU last summer the first thing I looked for and was a factory ROPS. I found one from a gentleman that restores Ford tractors. I had to widen the rears out to put it on. Basically had to switch the left rear to the right and the right to the left. With the low ground clearance of the SU, loaded rears, and seat belt I certainly feel much safer.

I've really never come close to tipping a tractor over but I know from experience that things can happen. I have noticed that my Workmaster 50 is much more stable on side hill mowing than my old 1720 was. The weight difference is quite large on those two tractors. I do have one area that I have to mow vertically. Too steep for side hill mowing. Further compounding the issue is that my tractor garage is at the bottom of the hill. Requires me to keep the FEL bucket low to the ground and back down the slope in 1st or 2nd at low RPM to brake the tractor.

 

[JulianKo]

That is one amazing discussion. I feel I am learning just by reading (don't have to have the bad experience to learn)..
A lot of it is common sense, but there were things in the posts I wouldn't have thought of... Like the effect of popping a tire while sideways on a hill. I also did not realize that the front axle on a tractor does not contribute as much to stability as on another vehicle.

I was curious about where is the center of gravity on those machines.. I imagined it should be the PTO... When one knows this, it is easy to calculate the maximum static grade.

On another note - how can I check whether my tires are filled with liquid?

 

[bcp]

I read an article long ago that said the side-to-side/vertical COG was usually very close to between the operator's ankles when the feet were on the footrests. Modern tractors with 4WD and floors may be different.

Bruce

 

[CobyRupert]

On another note - how can I check whether my tires are filled with liquid?

Several ways:
- Take one off and try to lift it.
- With valve stem near bottom of tire, push in valve and liquid instead of air will squirt out.
Then you next question will be, "Well how full are they?"
Usually, I think they're filled about 1/2 way between the axle and top of the tire (~75%)?

- You can tap on the sidewall of the tire and you will hear the difference when there is air behind it versus liquid. The air will "ping" more.
- Look on a damp morning when dew will form only on the part of the tire that is liquid filled, there will be a distinct line.