Lets talk low back pain/issues

[General Lee]

WVH1977 - I appreciate your offer to reach out to you, really nice of you. One question, did the epidural shots hurt? lol, the thought of a needle going into or around my spine spooks me out. I also know what you mean about the repeat cycle. As this is my second flare up and it was worse this time around. I fell off a ladder and cracked a "Transverse Process" bone in the lumbar region and it didn't hurt as bad as the disc bulges.

I think about everything I love I do, cut and split wood, build projects, workout etc. Just bums me out. I had to buy my firewood this year for this winter because I wasn't going to do all that back labor with the way I feel.

The PT told me today as far as MRI's go, mine wasn't that bad. I said sure doesn't feel that way. I know its just a matter of time I'll get cut on. The stenosis and arthritis won't do anything but get worse with time. The longer I can go hopefully back surgery technology gets even better. The problem with all this is finding what works for you. Chiropractor wants you to go to him. PT wants you to see him not the Chiropractor. Guess time will tell.

 

[Dadnatron]

Back pain can have MANY causes, so what works well for one person who has 'back pain' will or may not work well for another for a multitude of reasons. So, my first bit of advice is to recognize this fact, and while listening to friends, family, and co-workers is not a bad thing. Don't take their specific experiences as 'how things are for you'.

I'm going to think about this issue for a day or two. I think that given the obvious issues in so many people here, I will make a thread about back pain, its many causes, and options for treatment. I've been thinking about making a YouTube channel about it for about a year. I think that people are uninformed and since spinal pain is one of the leading causes of debilitation in the world, its causes and treatments should be better understood by the folk who experience it most.

And... every doctor is not created any more equal than every plumber or farmer. No matter what you 'call yourself' the ability to perform and teach is not equal between all. Good docs might suck at helping a patient understand and others who are good at education might be afraid of actually touching a patient. I know it sounds odd, given it takes a person at least 15yrs minimum after HS to become a fully trained Pain Physician, but, every education and ability is not any more equal than any other job out there.

Give me a few days to think about how to go about this and I'll do something next week.

 

[Dadnatron]

Just a quick note on 'how bad it hurts compared to the appearance of an MRI'.

I try to explain it like this...

When you are young.. ie < 55-60, your pain nerves are also young. Your ability to mount an inflammatory response to trauma is young. ****, your body thinks everything is young.

Some of the most painful patients I am asked to see, are 'young' people with 'almost' normal MRIs. I try to explain to patients that...

When you are 70-80... ALL of you is 70-80... including your pain fibers. Your hair is thin and grey, your skin is saggy, your legs are weak... and your pain fibers are less vibrant. This does NOT mean that you don't have pain as a 70-80yo. Just that at that age, nothing is working well. When you are 40yo and have an issue, you really tend to feel it. Your pain fibers are in tip top shape and working A-OK!. Your ability to mount an inflammatory response to trauma or an issue, ie disc or facet problem, is 100... or 99%... so you really feel things at 40 which are unlikely to 'feel the same' at 70, where those pain fibers are also older and less able to work well.

One of the most painful 'appearing' patients I have had was a 24yo Pro-football player with a very small disc bulge following a bad tackle. Now, you could 'say' he was a wuss, and he should get over it. But, the reality is that he was in tip-top shape in all regards and EVERYTHING was working 110% including his pain response.

So, while younger patients will definitely have a better chance to heal and overcome, it does NOT mean that a younger patient should 'feel' pain less intensely. In fact, a young person might be writhing on the floor when the same exact issue might be a simple 'discomfort' to a 70yo.

I tell everyone... "I treat patients, not pictures."

 

[WVH1977]

It has been about 10 years since I had that shot. I worried about it also. Big needle near my spine. From what I remembered it did not hurt. They numb you up first then give the shot. At least that is how I remember it. It got so bad with me I stopped hunting and fishing. I was just like you. I love cutting wood, moving dirt, burning brush, working out also. Well maybe not working out as much as I used to. Now I just do it to try and stay in some kind of shape. I think a lot of my back problems originated when I used to do brick work and ride four wheelers all the time. Then my military time probably did not help. But I will tell you that the surgery was absolutely without a doubt the best remedy for me. I am like a new man. I really did not realize how bad it was until I got better. There will always be the possibility that I could re-herniate my back, but right now I have had many pain free years since the surgery and no problems. I think I had the surgery in 2011. My memory is terrible. You need to weigh the risks out. Like my surgeon told me, "would you rather continue in pain or get fixed and have your future years pain free?" Even if it is only 10 years, it is still 10 years without that pain.

I do know that I don't work like I used to. I try and make it a point to take my time when working. I have to tell myself that it does not need to be done in an hour. Although I still overdue it quite a lot. I at least stop now and eat lunch sometimes.

When you say PT I am assuming you are talking about a physical therapist. What do they know about MRI's? lol. That is for a neurosurgeon to diagnose. I understand the whole finding out what works for you thing but if you broke your leg would you just try to walk it off, do some stretching, ice it down, get a shot to make it feel better or are you going to go the doctor and have them reset it and put you in a cast? I am just telling you that this a serious health problem and needs to be treated as such. Not just physically but emotionally as well. I would say it is even more emotional than physical. It is down right depressing. The worst thing is if you are like me it will take years of physical and emotional pain to realize the PT is not working, the shot works for a couple of months, the pills help a little, everybody telling you it is not that bad, etc. And chiropractors know absolutely dildily squat about a herniated disc. Think about it, they are not doctors, they go to a little 4 year college, get a degree and open up shop as a "DOCTOR". Horse POO. I can crack your back, put the little electrodes on your back and tell you to keep you wallet out of your back pocket. I can also tell you that one leg is shorter than the other and the way you walk is part of the problem. LOOK I am a chiropractor!! and don't even have a degree.

I too was told it is not that bad. Yeah, I feel like there is a meet grinder in my low back but it is not that bad. It is a tough situation you are in and there are no easy answers but don't lose hope. It took me a loooonnnggggg time to get to that surgery. I just know the suffering that comes with this condition. You might be lucky and everything heals with time. There is also that possibility. Thats what makes these decisions so hard. All I can offer is my experience. I am not a doctor so I can't really give you any valid medical advice. Stay strong.

 

[riptides]

.... there is life after surgery.

Curious as to where you went? UVA at Charlotsville?

 

[Egon]

When my left leg kept going numb, it finally came down to them figuring out I had a nerve pinched from wearing a belt. I stopped wearing belts (except for weddings and funerals) and the numbness went away after a few weeks. Of course, my pants fall down all the time now, but that just gets a good laugh.

As for the ongoing pain in my lower back, again, they say that's a nerve that's getting pinched by some bone in a vertebrae. For that, the latest thing they are recommending (they, being a DR that never looked at my X-Rays, touched me once and said he has a resolution), is an ablation of the nerve. That is, they electrically burn the nerve so it doesn't sense pain anymore. It doesn't resolve what's causing the pain, but you don't feel it, so who cares, right?

To test you out, they first numb the nerve with an anesthetic, and see if the pain goes away. That wears off after a day. Then you go back in three days and they numb you again. The reason they do this twice is they said people have a tendency to get a shot and are convinced it helps, even when it doesn't. So they do it two separate times to make sure they're poking the right nerve.

Once they're convinced they got the right nerve and blocking it works for you, they then do the ablation. However, after reading up on it, and the DR didn't mention this, it wears off within a year. And its only effective in a certain percentage of cases, and it wasn't a high number for me.

So I decided to live with the discomfort until (as a neurologist told me many years ago) "You'll know when you can't handle it anymore."

As I mentioned, mine is a large discomfort, not debilitating pain. I can manage it with exercise and 600mg of ibuprofen twice a day when its bugging me.

Good luck to you. :thumbsup:

Moss; coveralls -- very comfortable and common sense type clothing if fitted properly. Overalls -- keep the straps done up and they stay up. Just one is required. Straw hat and Brome stalk in side of mouth will complement. Also very comfortable.

 

[Egon]

Back pain can have MANY causes, so what works well for one person who has 'back pain' will or may not work well for another for a multitude of reasons. So, my first bit of advice is to recognize this fact, and while listening to friends, family, and co-workers is not a bad thing. Don't take their specific experiences as 'how things are for you'.

I'm going to think about this issue for a day or two. I think that given the obvious issues in so many people here, I will make a thread about back pain, its many causes, and options for treatment. I've been thinking about making a YouTube channel about it for about a year. I think that people are uninformed and since spinal pain is one of the leading causes of debilitation in the world, its causes and treatments should be better understood by the folk who experience it most.

And... every doctor is not created any more equal than every plumber or farmer. No matter what you 'call yourself' the ability to perform and teach is not equal between all. Good docs might suck at helping a patient understand and others who are good at education might be afraid of actually touching a patient. I know it sounds odd, given it takes a person at least 15yrs minimum after HS to become a fully trained Pain Physician, but, every education and ability is not any more equal than any other job out there.

Give me a few days to think about how to go about this and I'll do something next week.

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Here is some proper advice.

There are times when it is advantageous to make use of advice from those who have paid the price to become knowledgeable in what they do.

 

[WVH1977]

Rip Tides,

I went to Hanover Regional Memorial here in Richmond, VA. Dr. Abilio Reis was my surgeon. He is wth Ortho Virginia. I highly recommend him. Dadnatron gave very good advice as well. I went through several different doctors for opinions until I met Dr. Reis. He really broke it down for me (as far as options and what was wrong with me) and let me make the choice about the surgery. I do agree that surgery should always be the last option but sometimes that is not possible. It can also be bad not to have the surgery, but like Dadnatron said, everybody's back pain has different causes and needs to be diagnosed specifically for that person.

I really do feel bad for all on here going through severe back pain issues. It is debilitating and really handicaps you in all areas when those flair-ups happen.

 

[riptides]

Rip Tides,

I went to Hanover Regional Memorial here in Richmond, VA. Dr. Abilio Reis was my surgeon. ....

Thanks, like I said, I was curious, we are dealing with UVA in Charlottesville. Dr. C. Shaffrey. Surgery, fusion. cages, is probably a year or less away. We are trying for the sweet spot between quality-of-life and end-of-life. It's just that complicated.

 

[WVH1977]

It is that complicated and frustrating. And we thought buying tractors and attachments was tough! lol Just trying to bring some humor into it.

Like I said earlier, living with the pain all day everyday finally broke me down. I think I was fortunate to be in my early 30's when I had the surgery done. Our preacher at church had a fusion done on his back like 20 years ago and he has been fine up until now. He is now in is early 60s and the pain has returned. I guess the worst part about back problems is that it is there are so many medical opinions out there on on how to treat. You go to one doctor and they refer you to a specialist. You go to that specialist and get referred to another specialist, and on and on.

We just have to hang in there and do the best we can.

 

[PILOON]

Also a back pain sufferer.
I earlier blamed it on youthful antics and work related but only recently discovered the actual cause.
TBN !
LOL, I have a long torso, shortish legs and therefore my shirt is never tucked in.
Now, retired, my usual morning schedule is coffee, click onto news and TBN.
Problem is my loptop sits on table backed to a large window and winter cold still is close to my back and that cold actually radiates onto the lower back.
I know it sounds bizarre but wearing a cozy robe that covers my lower back has alleviated my back pain.
Well maybe age also contributes as well as the stupid youthful antics.

 

[beowulf]

Following one particularly disabling back issue (I was tossing fire wood from the back of a pick up into a shed) I yelled out and fell to the ground. I could not move initially due to pain. It took me at least ten minutes to figure out how I could get into the car so the wife could get me to town to dr. - and it was on a Saturday. The 45 minute drive to town was excruciating Then I needed a wheel chair to get from the car to the dr office, and then when I stood up in his office I fell and knocked a bunch of stuff off of a book case. Anyway, got a shot of demerol, prescription for vicodin, and flexeril, later a prescription for oxycontin. I was really laid up. I refer it to voluntary paralysis because you won't move due to the pain.

I hated the drugs - called and told dr the drugs depressed me and I would no longer take the oxycontin and tossed it. Kept the vicodin and flexeril.

I was referred to a back dr who was against long term drug use for back issues. He had me on a treatment regimen that involved stretching me twice a week - I think for about 4 weeks. I would stand with my back to an upright table which would slowly go horizontal. Then I was strapped in from hips down, and shoulders up. The machine attached to the straps would then very slowly stretch me. Stretch me and stop. Stretch me some more and stop - again and again for about 45 minutes. I did not sense I was getting longer or that I was actually stretched until the tension on the straps were released at the very end and then I could really sense my length shortening. A strange feeling.

This was supposed to open up the back vertebrae so the tissue could be hydrated - at least that is what I recall the theory was. Anyway, it provided great relief and I no longer needed to periodically take the drugs. After that I did some easy yoga (old man's yoga) and easy stretching and have come to believe that the stretching I now do every morning is very helpful.

All that it involves is standing and reaching high with both arms toward the ceiling - really, really reaching. And then reaching with one arm and then the other, and tilting to one side and then the other. Takes 5-10 minutes. I think this also would hydrate the tissue between the vertebrae. I have many fewer minor back issues and have so far avoided any serious back episodes. Everybody is different but this worked for me - along with being less foolish about what I attempt to do. I have had one more nagging back episode for which I received PT - which due to a great PT technician really helped put thing back together.

 

[General Lee]

Yes stretching has become a daily routine for me, most days multiple times a day. I also have an inversion table (teeter). I don't have the pain I had a month ago (knocks on wood) but because I have some tingling/numbness in the feet I know there is still some inflammation.

I ordered a reverse hyper machine, haven't assembled it yet. It supposed to be good for building the posterior chain and rehabbing the lower back. On the downward motion it provides a form of traction opening up the spine to increase blood flow and such. Curious as to what DADNATRON would have to say about that exercise?

 

[Big Barn]

Yes stretching has become a daily routine for me, most days multiple times a day. I also have an inversion table (teeter). I don't have the pain I had a month ago (knocks on wood) but because I have some tingling/numbness in the feet I know there is still some inflammation.

I ordered a reverse hyper machine, haven't assembled it yet. It supposed to be good for building the posterior chain and rehabbing the lower back. On the downward motion it provides a form of traction opening up the spine to increase blood flow and such. Curious as to what DADNATRON would have to say about that exercise?

General Lee. What kind of reverse hyper machine did you get?

I was planning on building one like this Rogue a few years ago but never got around to it.


Terry

 

[General Lee]

General Lee. What kind of reverse hyper machine did you get?

I was planning on building one like this Rogue a few years ago but never got around to it.
View attachment 505903

Terry

I got Rogue's model. Their new "Z" hyper model

 

[MossRoad]

Moss; coveralls -- very comfortable and common sense type clothing if fitted properly. Overalls -- keep the straps done up and they stay up. Just one is required. Straw hat and Brome stalk in side of mouth will complement. Also very comfortable.

Yep. Once I stopped wearing belts, I switched to suspenders. I can't find overalls that I like. Used to wear them all the time teens up into my mid 30s.

 

[beowulf]

I got Rogue's model. Their new "Z" hyper model

General Lee - I checked out the Rogue's Model Z hyper model you got. Interesting. What they say about it seems to be similar in effect to the stretching machine I was hooked up to in the Dr. Office. This is a quote from their site about the device:

The Science Behind the Reverse Hyperextension Machine:
"Rogue’s Reverse Hypers decompress the spine and produce no vertical compression on the spine at all. This simple device allows for dynamic strength development in the concentric phase, while serving as a rehabilitation mechanism in the eccentric phase. The spine is gently stretched and depressurized during the process, creating--in essence--an internal pumping mechanism, filling the spinal column with spinal fluid and the lower back muscles with blood. Anyone who has injured their back knows that the pressure needs to be relieved and circulation restored to the injured area in order to rehabilitate. The reverse hyperextension machine offers one of the best methods for achieving this."

I wonder how the benefits of this would compare to a "teeter" - Inversion device. The cost of the Rogue's Reverse Hypers Z is a bit daunting for me.

 

[General Lee]

I wonder how the benefits of this would compare to a "teeter" - Inversion device. The cost of the Rogue's Reverse Hypers Z is a bit daunting for me.

I also have a teeter inversion table. I think it has its place, but here is what sets the reverse hyper as different. It builds and strengthens your posterior chain (glutes, hamstrings and low back) all important for a healthy and strong back. I don't do dead lifts or squats in the gym because of loading the spine. So I'm hoping I can work those muscle groups with this. Build the low back and rehab it at the same time.

I can't find any bad reviews from gym goers who said this machine hasn't helped them tremendously in rehabbing their back. It is not in most gyms and not really sure why. Its mainly found in power lifting gyms not your typical "world or golds gyms' You do need to be careful not to over extend your legs above your glutes or to far under your waist.

Research the "reverse hyperextension" exercise on youtube and google. Its a well regarded exercise for the low back. There are other ways to perform them without a machine but I don't find them very comfortable to do and you do not get the same benefit this machine will give you.

 

[rustydollar]

Moss; coveralls -- very comfortable and common sense type clothing if fitted properly. Overalls -- keep the straps done up and they stay up. Just one is required. Straw hat and Brome stalk in side of mouth will complement. Also very comfortable.

I have problems with L1 / L2, first thing i did was remove that wallet from my back pocket. Also hang that heavy jacket up in favor of a down filled, also found that suspenders are hard on the back.

Your right on the money with proper clothing.

 

[Egon]

I have problems with L1 / L2, first thing i did was remove that wallet from my back pocket. Also hang that heavy jacket up in favor of a down filled, also found that suspenders are hard on the back.

Your right on the money with proper clothing.

Wish my wallet was that heavy!